56: How to Get Out of the Drama of Addiction in the Family with Donna Zajonc
“See it sooner so you can choose more powerfully faster.” –Donna Zajonc
The Drama Triangle has long been part of human story. But it is no ordinary drama like the ones we see on TV or movies. It’s a scenario where all participants can have a rotational switch of roles. It gets chaotic as the story progresses rather than being solved. The downside is, the drama never gets resolved and the story never ends. Today’s episode will help families get out of this zone and reach their own happy ending.
Get the show notes, transcription and resources mentioned at
http://thefamilyrecoverysolution.com/
Highlights:
04:07 Making Ideas Come to Life with David and Donna
05:58 The Drama Triangle
15:20 Flight, Fight, Freeze and Appease
24:03 Mindfulness Over Role Switching
29:36 Self-care
33:21 The Antidote for the Drama
40:00 Pseudo Relationships
46: 48 Do things Together
Resources:
Get out of it or you’ll be caught forever in the never ending cycle of roles you unconsciously fill in. Join @TFRSolution and Donna Zajonc and get a dose of the antidote for the drama of addiction in the family, #dramatriangle #Dr.Karpman… Share on X
About Donna Zajonc
Donna Zajonc is the Director of Learning and Coaching Services for The Power of TED (The Empowerment Dynamic). She worked with David Emerald, her husband and business partner for years. Together, they were a good tandem of brain and actions. But, the biggest heartbreak of all heartbreaks came unexpectedly on a Mother’s Day, when Donna had to drive her son to Rehab. The struggle was real. But incorporating the TED Framework personally impacted the most amazing changes in their lives. Today, Donna and David continue to help others get out of the drama triangle and become their best selves with The Power of TED*.
Connect With Donna:
Website: https://powerofted.com/
Email: Donna@PowerOfTed.com/
Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/donnazajonc/
Telephone: 206 780 9300
Connect with The Power of TED:
Website: https://powerofted.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/powerofted
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/company/358425?trk=tyah/
RSS: http://feeds.feedburner.com/tedthoughts/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClpCVTlNpU-J4R3ysPItRzw/
Pinterest: http://www.pinterest.com/powerofted/
Quotes:
11:45 “There’s times when we should disengage and step back, times where we should lean in and there’s other times we shouldn’t be helpful.” –Donna Zajonc
12:40 “If we take on that rescuing role over and over again …that disempowers others from taking charge of their own life.” –Donna Zajonc
26:55 “As we can understand the subtle nature of what it feels like to be calm, we can learn to access that in the drama moments when our family chaos is on the verge of taking us over.” –Donna Zajonc
30:20 “Self-care starts with… understanding that we deserve more than deserve.” –Donna Zajonc
31:11”We’ve got to learn to take care of ourselves by getting back to being comfortable with not doing anything.” –Donna Zajonc
33:17 “Self care begins with understanding who you truly are.” –Donna Zajonc
36:35 “Once we start having compassion for ourselves, we start having compassion for others.” –Donna Zajonc
42:09 “In our own minds, if we’re looking towards others for love to fill the hole in our heart, it’ll never be enough.” –Donna Zajonc
46:48 “The first aspect of the system is you.” –Donna Zajonc
51:17 “We’re at choice.” –Donna Zajonc
51:29 “See it sooner so you can choose more powerfully faster.” –Donna Zajonc
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
Jeff Jones: Well, hi there everyone. This is Jeff Jones on the Podcast Families Navigating Addiction And Recovery. And today I am here with a guest that I really didn’t think would answer my email, and I am so excited that she did.
Today, I am here with Donna Zajonc, she is married to David Emerald. I have been getting their emails for years. They are experts with the drama triangle, and so I was aware of the Karpman Triangle many, many years ago, and actually, I have incorporated the drama triangle into how I work with families initially to help them understand patterns that happen in families with stress, with addiction, but with stress. And I am so excited to have Donna here, and to have this conversation because, I know that, I personally will learn more about Karpman Triangle, which they I think rename the Dreaded Drama Triangle. And then they came up with like, How Do You Get Out Of this Dreaded Drama Triangle, and they call it the empowerment dynamic. And so Donna, I am so glad you’re here. Welcome.
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, thank you Jeff. Thank you for the email. I’m looking forward to what might emerge here in our time together. And to those that are listening, my hunches, those that are listening have some background, some maybe as suffering from addiction, from the effects of addiction of a loved one, maybe their own, but most likely from a loved one. And pain, and the suffering we both know is very deep, very heartbreaking, very real. And so, our conversation today about how this reference to the Drama Triangle, what is that we might want to start there, and why it’s given us personally, Jeff, why is contributed to make sense to the chaos, and the suffering that occurs–
Jeff Jones: –yeah
Donna Zajonc: –in an active addiction.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so before we jump into that, because that is the meat that I do want to talk about, but is there anything that you want to say to introduce yourself so people have a better idea of Donna?
Donna Zajonc: Sure. Thank you. Well, you mentioned David. My husband David and I are executive coaches, teachers. We work with organizations, teams, individuals around how to become our best selves. How do we be our best sales personally with teams as leaders? And so with that background of who we are, we do a lot of training, a lot of writing. Uh, David has written a book called The Power Of Ted, which is, you just mentioned the Empowerment Dynamic, T-E-D d is what we named the Positive Alternative Triangle that we’ll say more about here in just a minute, to How To Escape The Drama Triangle that is very sticky, very murky, very awful. When we’re in it, we all know when we’re stuck in it. And so as David’s partner, and as a master survey coach for the last 20 years, that’s been my love. So I’ve been partnering with David to take these ideas to make them real actionable. You know, it’s great to have a clever idea, or an interesting idea, or an academic idea, but if he can’t make it real—
Jeff Jones: –Yeah
Donna Zajonc: –people can’t use it. I grew up in the Midwest, you know, and so–
Jeff Jones: –Hey, alright
Donna Zajonc: –around it and practicality.–
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –So that’s, that’s what really I do. And the way I write, we have free essays that we write every Friday. I coach, we use all kinds of methods that I have helped partner with David on all these years to make this real.
Jeff Jones: And you guys have a lot of, like you have a library, or videos, or something like that. Yes.–
Donna Zajonc: –Yes.
Jeff Jones: –On the website. Yeah. So there’s, there’s a lot of information here, and yeah. So I’m thinking it would be helpful to talk about things like what is the drama triangle like, to explain the three different roles, and how they interact, and that kind of thing.
Donna Zajonc: That’s a good place to start. So, it’s known as the Karpman, K-A-R-P-M-A-N, Karpman Drama Triangle. It’s named after Dr. Stephen Karpman who is still alive, lives in the San Francisco area. And in the late 1960’s he named these three roles, and he named it with the Drama Triangle. And we got a chance to go down to San Francisco about 12, 14 years ago. Interview him. I’ll tell you a little bit more about that interview, and how he came up with the idea. But the reason it resonates, and it’s so used in the world of recovery, and counseling, and therapy, and now in organizations, the three rules that he identified in the naming of the Drama Triangle is the central role. Is that a victim mentality. And we don’t mean, you know, cause we’re all victims at times, we all get cut off in traffic, and we all have something happen to us. I mean in a big way, you know, victim of crime–
Jeff Jones: –ehm
Donna Zajonc: –we’re not talking about that, that is called victimization. We’re talking about victim hood.
Jeff Jones: –Ehm.
Donna Zajonc: –What Dr. Karpman identified is, the sense of an identity that we take on when we’re stuck in drama, in relationships with ourselves, or others that’s not working, we have a victim mentality that says, oh, i’m powerless here. I’ll never get this figured out. I’ll never get what I want. And so we disengage. We step back and our identity with life, or at least the circumstance that one is relating to with the victim hood thinking
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –is it’s one of powerlessness. So, when that happens, there’s a problem role, and that role is described by Dr. Karpman, as the persecutor.
Jeff Jones: –Ehm.
Donna Zajonc: –So, the persecutor is the one that is causing the problem to the victim. And it could be a circumstance, like something as awful as cancer, or you know, your house burns down. Most of them are other people, or situations. I feel that the problem of someone drinking too much, and I’m a victim to that, and they’re persecuting me, so that’s the second role. And in that case, what’s going on there from the victim’s point of view toward the persecutor is that, they’re the one with the power. They’re the one that’s controlling me. They’re the one that’s controlling the situation. When we take on, the persecuting role, we are using control and dominance.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –They want that, cause the last thing we want to be is a victim. So, when you and I step into the persecuting role, and it’s usually we don’t know we’re doing it, because we’re nice people, right?
Jeff Jones: –(laughs).
Donna Zajonc: –But we do it unknowingly, oftentimes
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Cause we want to stay in control.
Jeff Jones: So, what you just said there is so important, so, so important. And that is like, I can have one perception that I’m in a certain role, and I perceive you in a different role, and you have a totally different perception.
Donna Zajonc: That’s right.
Jeff Jones: And we’re trying to communicate, and it’s like my words are going past you, and your words are going past me, and–
Donna Zajonc: Right.
Jeff Jones: –And so, that is one of the things that is so important I think for, people to know here. There’s no, like on the image, the triangle, and the spotlight diagram that I have, there’s no real agreement about, okay, I’ll be in this role, you’d be in that role, and both kind of, like together we’ll tackle this.
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, there’s no agreement because, we’re all trying to survive, and we’re all me-centered, and we are stuck in reactive, and less than empowering. Thinking patterns in relationships, and–
Jeff Jones: Thinking patterns.
Donna Zajonc: –thinking patterns. And, we’ll say more about that in just a minute. Cause the question is, how do we get out of this? And the interest of continuing to describe the
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –triangle
Jeff Jones: –Yes, yes.
Donna Zajonc: –Is that we’ve got two roles now, and the three that we’ve identified
Jeff Jones: –Identified.
Donna Zajonc: –the central line is the victim. The victim is looking at this other as the problem that’s causing all the problems, and that’s the persecuting role. Now, when that dynamic is set up, Dr Karpman said: “There’s a third classic, we even call it archetypal role that now steps in, and that’s rescuer.”
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –The rescuer says: “Oh, I don’t like people fighting. I want everything to be okay, so I’m gonna step in here, and try to help this conflict, and I will take charge with offering great ideas, being helpful, and pleasing, and surely the victim especially will understand what a good I want to do on behalf of the victim.” And so, now we’ve got the three roles, and so there’s kind of underlying needs. They’re being met, played out in these three roles. The victim is, I’m going to stand back, and disengage, and feel powerless.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –We’re in the persecuting role. You lean against, and you say, okay, i’m gonna manage this situation by taking charge, and being assertive, and aggressive in control. That represents the persecutor in us, and then there’s this third classic aspect to us. We wanna be pleasing and accommodating, and now we’re on our knees saying, how can I help? So, we have all three of those aspects in us
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –at time and they’re all three, okay.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –There’s really nothing wrong with it. There’s times when we should disengage, and step back.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –There are times where we should lean in, and there’s other times we shouldn’t be helpful.
“There's times when we should disengage and step back, times where we should lean in and there's other times we shouldn't be helpful.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: But, a full-time diet of any one of those, is gonna be not what we want.–
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, that’s exactly what I was gonna say. If we have a primary role in, most of us do, I’m a recovering rescuer, and so, that’s my goto role, I wanna be helpful. But, if that’s the only way I know how to engage in life’s challenges, then I’m just gonna keep doing that, and doing that, and doing that, and it’s going to be unconscious at times in how much I do it. And, here’s the thing that’s really not useful for Weave’s families in recovery, is that if we take on that rescuing role over and over again, what a surprise to family members, is that they don’t realize how much that disempowers others–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –for taking charge of their own life. We actually, unknowingly encourage victim mentality when we’re in a rescuing role and we over-function.
“If we take on that rescuing role over and over again …that disempowers others from taking charge of their own life.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah, yeah. So, I’m so glad that you mentioned that. I mean, one of the things that I have seen specifically, is that, there is a dynamic specifically with that helping role, where they just get so used to helping, that, my sense is they don’t really ask the question, can this person do it themselves, or do they need help? It’s like I always say like, hey, if your loved one is in the street, and a bus is coming along, of course you’re gonna grab them, and pull them out of the way.
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, of course. And that’s not the case most of the time, and the addictive.–
Jeff Jones: Absolutely.
Donna Zajonc: –And I know that there has been times I had a teenage son, who I remember on Mother’s Day, taking him to rehab, and
Jeff Jones: –Wow.
Donna Zajonc: –he was the heartbreak of all heartbreaks. He had finally said yes to assistance, and it was all I could do over the years after he continued to get better, I actually saw him as incapable. I was so into the old mentality that, he couldn’t take care of himself. And even though, you know, there’s a lot of stuff going on with mother and young son, but you know, as a young adult now, there are times where I have to breathe, and slow down. And here’s the question I asked myself, how do I see my son? Is My son capable, or do I see him as someone that needs fixing?
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Because when we’re in the rescue or mole, we convince ourselves that they can’t take care of them, in order to justify our overly helpful suggestions.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. And with addiction, as I’m sure you know, that person can sure play into the script.–
Donna Zajonc: Perhaps
Jeff Jones: –they need to be taken (laughs) care of.
Donna Zajonc: Well, and I think that’s a big part of the nastiness of what goes on, in the chaotic drama stickiness that goes on when we’re playing out these rules, and as fear and anxiety of what might happen on the worst day of the addictive acting out. It keeps–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –the engine of the drama triangle going, and you know, these rules are so archetypal. I think Dr. Karpman, Is a genius in naming these three patterns of thinking and behaving is that, they line up with the fight, flight or freeze mechanism that occurs in our neurology.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh, yeah, I want to learn about this. Please, say more.
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, well you know, so what do we do? Fight, flight or please, or freeze, or appease, we’ve added a fourth one, freeze or appease. Now that’s the rescue, or that wants to be helpful,
Jeff Jones: Right? So freeze and appease is the rescuer.
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, that’s right. Flight, is the disengagement of the victim, powerless mentality. I’m gonna run away from this, my golly–
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –That’s how I’m gonna get away from this. But, what running away, and sometimes we do need to run away and protect ourselves. And if that’s, again, our only strategy in life is to run away. What that says is, I’m not taking responsibility.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –So it’s the flight of life, the flight of taking responsibility for what’s mine to do. And then the persecutor really lines up with the fight
Jeff Jones: –Big time, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Yeah, that is neurologically built into our, you know, however long we’ve been evolving, we don’t know any, but if a long time, and
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –that’s really built into our system. So what I think, you know, if we can name what’s going on, one of the things we do in our workshops is that, we hear how normalizing this is for people, that these are universal patterns that we get stuck in, in the drama triangle.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –It’s comforting to people to know that they’re not the only ones that do this, but this is built into our wiring
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –and that frankly, this whole drama triangle is, it’s in all of our novels, our movies, our fairy tales, the damsel in distress being
Jeff Jones: –Oh my gosh, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –it’s a big part of the human story, and it plays out big time in families, in recovery, or not in recovery.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh, yeah. So that with it being like, this is built into our biology, our wiring, our nervous system kind of thing. It’s like, well, one thing that I want to say in how I use this, is I try to bring in mindfulness of what’s going on in the body as a way to slow down, and disengage from the pattern. And so, you know, someone who has a tendency to, like a natural tendency to go to fight, or the persecutor, you know, their ability to slow down, or the way they do it, is going to be different than someone else who has a tendency to be in the victim role, or something like that. So boy, what you’re talking about, they’re like, I’m gonna be going back, and listening to this podcast a couple of times myself, you know.–
Donna Zajonc: I sort by, into exactly what you just said about the mindfulness, and basically what are we doing when we’re more mindful is that we’re pausing, and we’re learning to self observe in the moment. And what does that mean? It means that we get some distance, and new perspective on what is going on. So that, we can observe ourselves in these roles, rather than actually feeling like we are these roles.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –So, this is a very important distinction.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –In life, we are not victim persecutors and rescuers, those are roles. They’re literally drama roles that we play to do what, Jeff, we play them in order to manage our anxiety about a situation.
Jeff Jones: And I was gonna say: “Get our needs met.” Or try to get our needs met.
Donna Zajonc: And what’s our needs? Our needs are to be safe.–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –Our needs are to feel like we have some sovereignty, or some power over situation,
Jeff Jones: –Some kind of influence, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Some kind of influence, and basically to be happy and get what we want. I mean there’s a range of needs, but they’re pretty basic.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –And what if a family member who’s acting out, and it’s not well with addiction, we all experienced chaos, sadness. We believe our loved one will never have the life they want. We might lose everything financially, health, I mean it goes on and on, and once we
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –go down that rabbit hole of fears, there’s almost no into the catastrophizing.
Jeff Jones: Right, absolutely. It’s like the snowball rolling down the hill.
Donna Zajonc: Exactly, so why we take on these roles is to manage our fear. All those things we just listed–
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Donna Zajonc: –and we learn as a very young child. Lot of this has to do with what we learned in our family of origin of, you know, in some families for my family for example, very small town, Missouri Ozarks, and they were owners of a small little retail, JCPenney like store. So, I grew up watching my parents be the nicest parents on main street. Every customer was right, and I mean they were genuinely sweet, kind, amazing people, they passed now. But that is the family I learned to be nice, pleasing, accommodating. So, when trauma, or dramas, or issues start in my family as an adult, what role do you think I went to?
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –I’ve already said, it’s obvious. I went to
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –my default role is to please.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –In another family, it’s maybe different.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –We, a family that is really aggressive. We’re very complex beings, and how we learn to take on one of these goto roles, is part of our history. So be able to have a perspective, and hear that it’s normal to do this.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –I find that it gives compassion of people that allows us to have a little self, give themselves a break.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, one of the things that I’m hearing from you is, these roles are impersonal, and we personalize them in some respects. If we can’t take a pause and step back, we can’t help but personalize them. And we believe that this is who we are.–
Donna Zajonc: That’s right.
Jeff Jones: –Especially because, we don’t see the impersonal patterns, and we don’t see this as like, you know, the human biology piece that you brought in, like with the fight, flight and freeze, or appease kind of thing. It’s like that’s so hard to grasp because, when the chaos gets amped up, the nervous system gets amped up. There’s more blood flowing to the limbic, and less blood flowing to the cortex where we can make our best decisions.
Donna Zajonc: Ehm, and if we’re a rescuer, we come up with 32 reasons about why our loved one should do this, this, this and this. And if they don’t, then we feel victimized that they didn’t take our brilliant advice. And then whether it’s just a race around the drama triangle, cause then once, if we feel victimized, then who are they? They’re the persecutor.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: They think they’re the victims. So, that’s why David and I say victim, victim, who’s the victim, is the game here. We just race around the drama triangle.
Jeff Jones: I have seen numerous times exactly what you have said, and it’s almost on some level there’s a fight, a fight, and it’s in quotes there. But, like I’m thinking of one particular family years ago, two siblings were kind of, like, no i’m the victim, no i’m the victim kind of thing. And, it’s like when they stay identified with that, this is very personal, and it’s like I will never talk to you again, kind of personal.
Donna Zajonc: Which is an attempt to control, isn’t it? You know? So all three of these drama roles, they’re roles. As you mentioned before, they’re behavior methods to manage the anxiety and fear we feel about the situation. But all three of them are built upon a foundation of victim thinking. So, you’re two people in that example were, maybe they were behaving differently. One being real aggressive, maybe–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –one real helpful, or the other standing back and complaining, oh, poor me being the victim. All three of them are thinking me centered, fear based, problem reactive, reacting to the anxiety, and they behave differently, but the thinking is all the same. Does that make sense?
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, yeah, so the thinking is the same. The interpretation that they have, I’m the victim here, but then their strategy to try to solve the problem is different.
Donna Zajonc: It’s different. And it can change at any second (laughs), because all three of these strategies and roles are inside of us. We tend to go to one more than another.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Like I do the rescuer. Well, I tell you, I can go to victim thinking of David glances at me in a way that I think he’s persecuting me. Believe me, I can go to the victim mentality so fast. And he would say, I just shot him a dirty look, and he feels victimized by my persecuting. So I mean, that’s just a quick way of how
Jeff Jones: –And no words were exchanged.
Donna Zajonc: –No words, but boy, we had an interpretation, and we had a story about it, didn’t we?
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So, the example that I use often times, is the boy scout and the elderly woman with a cane, and they’re at the stop light, and it’s red, and then it turns green. And the boy scout immediately puts his arm around the elderly woman, and his hand under her arm that has the cane to help her across the street. And the elderly woman looks at him, like with this big surprise, and takes her cane, and starts to hit him. They’re not even halfway across the street yet–
Donna Zajonc: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –you know? And already, it’s like the boy scout interpreted himself as the savior, or the, what did you call it?
Donna Zajonc: The rescuer?
Jeff Jones: The rescuer, yeah. And saw her as the victim, but she didn’t see herself as a victim.–
Donna Zajonc: No.
Jeff Jones: And then when he put his arm around her to help her, she was like, oh my god, this guy, what is he doing? And I didn’t ask for this–
Donna Zajonc: And I better control the situation and fight back.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, so it’s like this can change so quickly. It’s so hard to understand. And, on some level, if I try to understand it with my thinking alone, I can’t keep up.
Donna Zajonc: And there are things we can do, and the first thing is that you mentioned a few minutes ago is mindfulness. And I want to start there, and build on that, so where are the more positive roles that we can go to? And the first thing is, is that, let’s interrupt this reactive pattern that our neurology, we get triggered by cortisol, and other hormones, stress hormones. They’re built into our system to protect us. They start rushing into our bloodstream, and it is really, really hard to calm down. And last we stop, and the more we practice mindfulness contemplative that could practices. It could be journaling–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –It could be just out walking, and breathing deeply. It could be a prayerfulness. It could be a number of things that get us used to feeling calm. And, as we can understand the subtle nature of what it feels like to be calm, we can learn to access that, in the drama moments when our family chaos is on the verge of taking us over.
“As we can understand the subtle nature of what it feels like to be calm, we can learn to access that in the drama moments when our family chaos is on the verge of taking us over.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XAnd as we calm, and we literally need to tell ourselves, pause. And that’s important because, just coming up with a word, and literally saying it engages the part of our brain, that is the thinking part of the brain, and not the overactive Amygdala–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –The brain that’s scared to pause, take some breaths. And I encourage, and I do this, I removed myself from the situation, as it took a long time to figure out that I cannot argue with my loved one when he’s high.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –You know, cause i’m hurt
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –i’m scared, I don’t understand why he’s doing this again. And, as I take care of myself, you know, unless they’re in the street, and on the bus, as you say, you know, and we have to learn to distinguish that bay. Most of the time they’re not.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –Most of the time they’re in our living room
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –or whatnot. And remove yourself, take care of yourself, breathe deeply, allow the cortisol to burn off. And if you can exercise a little, that speeds up the burning off of the stress hormone. And then maybe the next day, or a few hours later, you can start moving into what we call the empowerment dynamic. And that is what we have named, is the antidote roles to victim, persecutor, and rescuer. So let me stop there. I’ve said quite a bit just then in terms of
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –How do we begin a new path to get off?
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the first thing that I want to underline, or emphasize, is the importance of calming the nervous system, and people having the ability and the skills–
Donna Zajonc: Yes. —
Jeff Jones: –to do that. And you know, it can start with just, I need 10 minutes here. I’m gonna go for a walk, or I’m gonna take the dog for a walk, or whatever. And then when they’re walking to actually be focusing their attention more on smelling the flowers, then going over and over in their mind with whatever happened. But, like that need to pause, to calm, to kind of bring the nervous system, you know, back to baseline kind of thing, is the first step to transition from the Dreaded Drama Triangle. Anyone of those three roles to the empowerment dynamic, the antidote.
Donna Zajonc: That’s right, and we talk about self care. You know, some people who so drowning in the Dreaded Drama Triangle, and the Drama Of Life, have no idea what the phrase, self care means, I didn’t–
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –people on self care, and then when it came to, what does that mean for myself? I thought it was selfish.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Because, I have a rescue, or default mentality, which says: “I was a learn perspective that if you take care of yourself, Donna, this is family talking.”
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: You know that’s selfish.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –You shouldn’t work hard, and life will be fine if you just buck up and work hard.
Jeff Jones: The old self-talk messages,
Donna Zajonc: That was the family German work, work, work mentality. So, self care starts with what you just described, is understanding that we deserve more than deserve. If we don’t take those 10 minutes–
“Self-care starts with… understanding that we deserve more than deserve.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –If we don’t take the half an hour here and there, to do things that are joyful, things we love. We literally are at risk of the ends of our nervous neurons being frazzled. And I mean, it’s like a rope. You know that frazzles that’s
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –what’s going on in our body. And so, we completely reduce our capacity to be calm. Then when complexity and chaos hits us, and I don’t know about you, but there’s a little complexity and chaos in the world right now.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh, yes, yes.–
Donna Zajonc: In a family of recovery that’s trying to recover from the illness and suffering of addiction.–
Jeff Jones: Right?
Donna Zajonc: –And so absolutely, we’ve got to learn to take care of ourselves, by getting back to being comfortable with not doing anything.
”We've got to learn to take care of ourselves by getting back to being comfortable with not doing anything.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: I mean that means, when you’re at the stoplight and it’s red, don’t reach for your phone.
Jeff Jones: Right, that’s a great opportunity just to breathe deeper or whatever.
Donna Zajonc: That will benefit us. And so our lifestyle today, is working against us to be able to be calm in the moment when drama hits.
Jeff Jones: So, I want to ask you, and you’ve already made some real good suggestions here. But one, I want to appreciate and acknowledge your vulnerability to say, Hey, you know, when I was in this situation, and someone talked to me about self care, I was like, you know, what does that mean? Like don’t talk to me about that or whatever. And so, I want to ask you, is there anything that you have learned, or understand that, for people who may be hearing this, and can definitely relate to that role, to where they might be able to hear self care a little bit differently?
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, well that’s a great question. I actually have an essay that we write on our Friday essays. The difference between self care and selfish, and distinction of understanding that difference, and that it took me well into my 60’s before I understood there is a difference, because of my life pattern that I just spoke about. And I think, in answering your question, it means you must look at your own story–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –About self care, your own story about work, about success, about what you are telling yourself about your identity and who you are.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, oh my gosh, Donna, those are golden tips. And, what you just mentioned, what you wrote that I assume is on your website–
Donna Zajonc: It is, it is.
Jeff Jones: –somewhere, that you’ll tell us later, but those are golden, so wow.
Donna Zajonc: And so, this self care begins with understanding who you truly are. So, we’ve talked about roles that we take on, as behavior in order to respond to the inner state of anxiety.
“Self care begins with understanding who you truly are.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: So the antidote in our empowerment dynamic, tend to the victim role, is that of creator. And what we mean by creator is that, it’s really becoming honest, and deeply connected with yourself of who are you, as I’ll say a spiritual being, and we don’t have to use that word, but who are you as a human being who is viewed right now in this moment with the life, as a creator essence. And that essence is, I mean, just think about it. How are we living, breathing bodies unless we have an aspect, and spark of some complete mystical mystery going on inside of us. And THAT, you know that? Meaning, making of who we really are is the internal quest of humanity–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –You know, we say we are, and we are extraordinarily creative, intelligent beings.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –That’s who we really are. That’s the stuff of the creator essence. And that’s the role we’ve identified and named, as the opposite role of victim. But what this means is, is now we have to ask ourselves, what do I really want in life?
Jeff Jones: Yeah, so when we go into that role, we have certain responsibilities.–
Donna Zajonc: Okay.
Jeff Jones: –Like, there’s responsibilities being a creator.
Donna Zajonc: –Whether you go. So that’s the two questions that we use, as the fundamental questions to support. When we can stop, and say, and observe that we’re thinking with a victim mentality, we’re feeling powerless. So, here’s when I know I’m in the victim mentality.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: I’m complaining–
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Donna Zajonc: When I complain, that’s the universal thing we don’t like what is, we complain about it. Oh dang, I’m in the long grocery line again, and David’s out there in the car waiting for me. I’m powerless to get what I want. And what I want is to get out of this line. You hear the victim mentality in that–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –simple example of grocery line. So, that victim mentality is, what is it that I really want? And, what’s my responsibility? And as soon as I can pause, and breathe, and that’s a silly example, what I really want is to be in this moment, to appreciate the person in front of me, the person who’s checking out my groceries, the person that I wanna be connected.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –To who I am as a human being, and who others are. And suddenly, I calmed down.
Jeff Jones: –Ain’t that amazing.
Donna Zajonc: –It is. So, who, right, stopping asking ourselves, what do we really want? Acknowledging our true essence of who we are. And then that responsibility starts emerging. We start saying, okay, I actually do want that, and we don’t disengage. We actually lean in, and start creating baby step at a time what we want.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –So that’s what mean, with victim to creator. Once that starts, the other shifts from persecutor to challenger. So what we mean by challenger is, is that once we start having compassion for ourselves, we start having compassion for others, cause we start seeing that everybody’s in this human
“Once we start having compassion for ourselves, we start having compassion for others.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: –Dilemma, maybe.
Donna Zajonc: –Dilemma drama that we’re trying to figure out here.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Once we start having compassion, now we’re able to stand in the moment, and what is it I want to learn here? Rather than, what do I need to control, and blame, and put down?
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –What do I learn, and what’s the truth about what’s really going on?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.–
Donna Zajonc: They eat the truth without blaming.
Jeff Jones: One of the things about, I mean, initially when I was learning this, I always saw the persecutor role as, oh, that’s bad, and I could never do dah, dah, dah, dah. But the reality is that anyone, well in a family with addiction, and this generalization, but anyone who sets a boundary, they automatically go into the persecutor role because, setting boundaries in a family with addiction like, that is not the norm.–
Donna Zajonc: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –And so, you know, I really thought, eventually, I warmed up to the power of being able to challenge what’s going on around me. You know, by asking questions, by kind of naming what I see. But I really love, you know, the creator, and then being able to challenge.
Donna Zajonc: Exactly, I like to call it the challenger when, we’re in the challenger role where the Truth-Teller.–
Jeff Jones: The Truth-Teller, I love that.
Donna Zajonc: –The Truth-Teller’s sets boundaries, and says: “You know, this is what I’ve got to have for me.”
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –This is what we’ve got to have for the family. And then that’s it, that you say it without blame and judgment. Cause,
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –we can also set boundaries by attempting to what we really want to do, is our motive, is to control. Truth-Teller Boundaries, is all about saying what is reality, and how we’re gonna have to live with this situation. That’s just one example of what the Truth-Teller’s do, or the challenger role. Then the other big shift is from rescuer to coach. So the rescuer, is very much the helper role.
Jeff Jones: –Yes.
Donna Zajonc: –And, so the antidote to the rescuer and the coach is still a supporting role, but now the coach, instead of the rescuer saying to the other person, okay, I think you should do this, this and this, and you’ve got all these great ideas, instead of telling
Jeff Jones: –Right?
Donna Zajonc: –So I like to say, you ask first and tell second, but actually telling should be about the fourth choice, you ask first.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –And asking would be something like, is there anything you need from me to support you?
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –So that’s a coach like question, where, when I’m in the rest of your role, I don’t ask them questions. I just say go do this, and go do that, and I want you to do it by Friday.
Jeff Jones: Right, yeah. I mean, the other thing that I have done in this role, because, I can very much relate to the helping role, you know, that is to ask, are there two, or three possibilities that you think of right now that you aren’t doing, but could. —
Donna Zajonc: Nice.
Jeff Jones: –And to allow, you know, to give them the power to make the choice that they want to make, and not say you need to do this kind of thing unless the boss is bearing down on them, kind of.
Donna Zajonc: That’s right. So for me, it’s hard for me to get to that question unless I first pause and ask myself. It sounds like kind of an odd question, but I ask myself, how do I see the other?–
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Donna Zajonc: –Do I see the other as a problem to fix? Or, do I see them as capable? And I mentioned this earlier in our conversation, but if I tell myself the truth, you know that, that relationship with the drama triangles is operating inside of me, am I going to challenge myself? To tell myself the truth? And when you ask yourself, how do I see the other, in this case for me, I got it first and center. How did I see my son when I told myself the truth that I didn’t see him as capable. That’s when my recovery started because
Jeff Jones: –(Wow)
Donna Zajonc: –if I didn’t see him as capable, then one I’m justifying my intervening and he frankly, he’ll constantly get the message from me that his mom doesn’t see him as capable, and I’m gonna overdo everytime, and disempower him.
Jeff Jones: And that’s gonna significantly impact the connection that you have with your son, or that the helper has with the victim.
Donna Zajonc: It’ll be a pseudo connection cause, it’s based on a false relationship.–
Jeff Jones: Right, thank you. A false relationship.
Donna Zajonc: –Well, in a fun in authentic relationship, cause why am I doing this? Let’s get back to my needs as a rescuer.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –When i’m doing this, Dr. Karpman said: “Because, I’m hoping that those out there in the world, my son and a lot more are going to see me as helpful, and therefore they will love me.”
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: So it’s really a self-centered, arrogant approach to life that, I say I’m wanting to help cause I’m concerned about the other–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: –but it’s not the real case. That’s why I said pseudo.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Is because, what, why we’re really doing it as we want to see ourselves worthy of love, and to receive the love back.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Don’t get it, because there’s a hole in us. We’re all rescuers, eventually become victims in their minds. Let me say that again.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, please. I was gonna ask you to repeat that.
Donna Zajonc: In our own minds, if we’re looking towards others for love to fill the hole in our heart–
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –it’ll never be enough.
“In our own minds, if we're looking towards others for love to fill the hole in our heart, it'll never be enough.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Therefore, when I’m in my rescuing mentality, I will always eventually become a victim, cause i’ll never receive enough from others.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, and it’s more about you, than it is about the one you’re trying to help. And so, one of the questions that I have, and specifically, you know, with families, with addiction, and that is, you know, i’m asking questions that I don’t know the answer. And you may not know the answer either, but I’m gonna say, well, what are some ideas? But that is, like applying this to how can families help. And so, that’s a general question, and there’s more than one answer. And, one I’m hearing is to step back, see the impersonal patterns of the Drama Triangle. Do the self care of breathing, or you know, lowering your own nervous system, and then taking new action, which would be either from the standpoint of the coach, the creator, or the Challenger.
Donna Zajonc: That’s right. And you know, I would say have compassion for yourself.–
Jeff Jones: Have compassion.
Donna Zajonc: –Compassion for the loved one that’s suffering
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Because we hurt so bad, we strike out and judge, and they’re already hurting.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: They’re already judging themselves, even though they might not say it, or act like it, they are.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –And so compassion is the blanket to put on all of this, that this is really hard stuff.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Yes, learn more about what calming feels like in your body, so that you can move into that space easier when needed. And it’s important to practice calming when you’re not in the chaos, because the odds are, if you don’t have a practice, you’re not going to be able to access calming yourself when drama hits. So, continue that. And then, there are other ways in terms of these key questions, and the key questions that I’ll just review again real quick that we’ve discovered in the victim to creator is, you know, what do I really want here?
Jeff Jones: –Ehm.
Donna Zajonc: –And what’s mine to do? When we’re in a complaining victim me mode.
Jeff Jones: Yes.
Donna Zajonc: Or the persecutor is, what can I learn about this situation?–
Jeff Jones: Hm.
Donna Zajonc: –How can I have compassion, which we’ve spoken to a lot because, when we’re in that aggressive mode, we just want to lean in, and lean against. We don’t have compassion, we put down on blame. So, what can I learn? How can I have compassion? And what truth needs to be told here?
Jeff Jones: –Ehm.
Donna Zajonc: –Without blame and judgment.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –Those things help the persecutor, a challenger shift, and then the rescuer. How do I see the other? And, how do I take care of myself, so that the love that I want emanates from me?
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Rather than craving it from others.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, beautiful, beautiful, wow. Thank you very much Donna. So, I have another question, and that is, I’m thinking about the situation of a family, and one person in the family doing this, practicing this over and over, getting better at it, and the idea of multiple people in the family doing this, and practicing it, and getting better and better at it. And so I’m just curious if you could talk a little bit, you know, from a system standpoint. What you see as differences there, or different possibilities, or opportunities, or obstacles?
Donna Zajonc: Yeah, great question. Probably our most common question when we do our trainings on our workshops, is somebody will have really taken on these ideas, and it’s made a difference in their life, and they want to know how to fix someone else. And you know, when we say you can’t, all you can do is take care of yourself, and have access to your better creators essence more often–
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Donna Zajonc: –and you’re going to start influencing others. You’re gonna start asking you, wow, what have you done lately? You seem calmer, you seem happier, you’re not getting triggered all the time. You’re not telling me what to do anymore.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –So the first aspect of the system is you
“The first aspect of the system is you.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: So, do all the things we just talked about. So then, couple of other tips we’ve heard from lots of families that they bought four, or five books, and they’re reading the book together. So they start hearing the language together, and they start talking. It becomes like a condensed language of some of the things you and I named today.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Some of the ideas and strategies, David’s book is about a three to four hour read. It’s a story about a guy named David, who just lost his marriage. Ted died prematurely, and he just found out he couldn’t have kids. So He’s feeling victimized.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Donna Zajonc: –And by the way, all those things happened to my husband David.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –So, the story is a FABLE, about a guy, David walking on the beach with a guy named Ted that teaches him all these ideas.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: But it’s a story. So families read it together, it’s a way to create a system–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –that has the language. One of the things we have learned is, don’t try to fix that. They’re not involved in wanting to be part of the system. And the last thing you tell someone is, oh, you’re just being a victim. You know? So if I said that to you sometime it, you know, we’ve just met. So, if we were in some sort of family, or relationship, and I said that to you Jeff, oh, you’re just being a victim, how might you see me? What Role?
Jeff Jones: Well, you had the, it’s like a persecutor role.
Donna Zajonc: For sure, and then if you feel persecuted, what are you going to do in return? You’re gonna–
Jeff Jones: I’m gonna try to defend myself, and let you know that, that’s not who I am. And, I may need to be the persecutor to do that.
Donna Zajonc: And have you do that back to me. How am I gonna feel? Victimized? And that’s just gasoline on the Drama Triangle and explode.–
Jeff Jones: And we’re gonna go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Donna Zajonc: So there are some things not to do, because it will blow up the system. So just a really quick, is take care of yourself, influence others by being a good role model. You’ve got to have some sort of way that everybody’s thinking and speaking in a language together, and watch videos together, read the book together.
Jeff Jones: And then, talk about it afterwards together. Talk about the ideas from an impersonal, conceptual kind of standpoint like, oh my God, look at that? How they come up with that? Like the concept kind of thing, and to kind of, like understand the impersonal patterns before kind of, well, you did this, and you need to like–
Donna Zajonc: I love that idea. Yeah, watch a movie together, and dissected according to him.
Jeff Jones: –Oh, that’s beautiful.
Donna Zajonc: See all the different drama triangle, some of them are amazing. So, David and I just saw Toy Story 4, oh my god, it’s hilarious. You know, how they set up drama triangle with these toys, and the boys, and the girls, it’s hilarious. So, you see it everywhere, and it becomes impersonal–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: Comes impersonal, the last you’re gonna get triggered, because you’re going, OH, there’s that feeling again.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Donna Zajonc: –Look at how I just said that. I said that in a very condescending persecuting way. You know? See when you can see that you disengage a little bit from it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, oh my gosh, Donna, this has been an incredible conversation, and others just a ton of very useful little tips and takeaways that, I hope people can glean from this. And before we end, well one, if there’s anything that you would like to say that you haven’t said, and then I’m gonna ask you about, how people can learn more.
Donna Zajonc: Oh, thank you. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it, and as we both said, we were gonna just have an interesting conversation and see where it goes. This wasn’t scripted at all, and I feel like we did that, I thoroughly enjoyed it. And you heard my enthusiasm because, I have seen lives change with the awareness that we simply can name, once we name it, we tame it.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Donna Zajonc: We can get out, we can see it, the drama, and we can see these triangles operating, as though it’s like a framework, and we don’t have to decide to engage. We don’t have to, you know, we were invited to a lot of drama parties, and we don’t have to attend all of them.
Jeff Jones: Right, and so once we see this, we can choose a different way of being, a different way of engaging, interacting with our loved ones.
Donna Zajonc: That’s probably the bottom line, isn’t it? We’re at choice. It’s difficult to be a choice though. When we’re triggered, and we’re in it, and we can’t see it. And our whole conversation is about how to use the drama triangle, the Ted Shift, to see it sooner so you can choose more power rates faster.
“We're at choice.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XJeff Jones: I love that. See it sooner, so you can choose more powerfully, faster. I think that’s a great message for families with a loved one and addiction to be able to see the pattern sooner, see what’s going on sooner and own it. And then how can people learn more, connect with you, whatever is appropriate there.
“See it sooner so you can choose more powerfully faster.” –Donna Zajonc Share on XDonna Zajonc: Well, we’re really happy to have Dr. Karpman’s endorsement on the front of David’s book. It says, David’s Empowerment Dynamic. Ted, is the Best Escape From The Drama Triangle he’s ever seen.–
Jeff Jones: Ah.
Donna Zajonc: –And so, from that endorsement in the book, we put up a website and now 12, 14 years later, it’s our life’s work. So they could go to our website, the power of ted, T-E-D by David Emerald. We’ve got all kinds of videos and articles. You could also sign up for our Free Friday Newsletter, and we write an article every week about tips on it, and how to get out of it. David’s book, probably the best thing is to go to Amazon, and you can buy books on Amazon. I think there are $14 we have audio, audible books in Kendall’s?
Jeff Jones: Correct.
Donna Zajonc: So those are the ways, you could email me at donna@powerofted.com.
Jeff Jones: Beautiful, wow, well thank you very much Donna. I really appreciate this, and I learned a lot myself.
Donna Zajonc: I enjoyed it very much and you know, compassion to all those families out there that are working to transcend the suffering of addiction.
Jeff Jones: Amen. Thank you.