17: Josh Miller talking all about rehab
“My family didn’t stop loving or supporting me, but they started listening to the professionals and not the addict” -Josh Miller
Josh Miller is the new guy in town; the new Director of marketing at the Red Rock Recovery and a new resident in Colorado. His first love has always been helping young people recover from life’s struggles and get them connected again to the world. Josh has a wealth of knowledge when it comes to embodying the position that he has in Red Rock and these includes leadership roles at St. Paul Sober Living as Program Manager and Director of Outreach as part of his portfolio.
Josh discusses with Jeff Jones how he started, the demons that he overcame, how rehab is not just a journey for the addict but for the whole family, how hard it is to face the truths of addiction and how rehabilitation can really change the lives of people around you.
Highlights:
2:16 The new guy in Colorado
8:00 Learnings are for everyone in the family when it comes to rehabilitation
13:18 Chronic Uniqueness
22:50 Truth hurts
26:18 Family healing vs Silo healing
Tweets:
@TFRSolution takes time to talk to this new guy in town Josh Miller about his road to rehabilitation and his passion for helping out people to fulfill their own recovery story. http://thefamilyrecoverysolution.com/ #family #recovery
Quotes:
11:25 “My family didn’t stop loving or supporting me, but they started listening to the professionals and not the addict” -Josh Miller
19:03 “In relation to addiction, the family having some continuity of care across crisis and recovery…there is a lot of disconnect in the resources that the family gets” -Josh Miller
26:18 “When someone gets in long term recovery, that they lead the family into a change process” -Jeff Jones
26:40 “Families can make change, they can come together and have a unified voice in commit to a healing process” -Jeff Jones
28:09 “We do better in community, we do better with connection” – Josh Miller
Resources
Websites:
Red Rock Recovery – https://redrockrecoverycenter.com/
Milestones Ranch Malibu – http://www.milestonesranch.com
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
JEFF: I’m honored to have Milestones Ranch Malibu sponsor this episode of this podcast. Milestones Ranch is a small 12 bed premier dual diagnosis residential facility that believes that addiction problems in a family do not happen in a vacuum. Everyone has taken on impact and everyone deserves healing from the ramifications of addiction. I’ve experienced milestones myself. I’ve been there, feet on the ground firsthand. And over time of working with this team, I’ve seen the benefit of a group of dedicated professionals supporting families long term positive outcomes, what they call the milestones method. I have the utmost respect for their team and their collaborative model of health. So, check out their website@wwwdotmilestonesranch.com.
So welcome family. This is Jeff Jones on The Podcast Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery. And I’m here today with a guy who I recently met, Josh Miller. And I was down at Red Rock Recovery and open house and he is new on that team. And I was chatting with him and he has his own background that I will let him get into. So welcome.
JOSH: Yeah, thanks for having me Jeff. New to the Red Rock Recovery Center team. I’m the new director of marketing. Also new to Colorado, which is excited. My wife and I just moved here from Minneapolis. I have worked in the behavioral health field, specifically the addiction treatment world for about five and a half years total. Took a little break at one point and found that I can’t do anything else well or at least with passion, but it works in a variety of roles. On the [inaudible] side, you know, with the clients kind of little clinical background, but most recently and certainly with this new role, really focused on outreach and collaborating with quality programs around the country. Better serve our clients and help push our industry. And yeah, enjoy meeting you and excited to be on the podcast. I think we care about some of the same stuff.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. Right. So, the conversation that we had was about families, you know, something that I think we are, that we both have a passion with. And so one of the questions that I have for you is if you could talk a little bit about how that passion for you developed.
JOSH: Yeah, absolutely. Well certainly it starts with my own story, which I think is fairly, not always the case, but fairly common with the people I meet in this field, you know, whether it’s themselves or a loved one. There’s this connection to some realm of behavioral health that really, you know, brought them into this world. That’s a pretty common denominator. And I’m in a recovery from addiction myself. I’m an individual longterm recovery and could very much have been like a poster boy for the opioid crisis we are currently see ourselves in, and faced a long tough road to finding recovery and finding new life, finding sobriety. And I had very much like a, from the outside and you know. And it’s hard for me to find the right word, but a healthy family life. I’m the oldest of four. My parents were, you know, it was not a home of divorce. They were together. They were around. They were involved in my life. There’s obviously, you know, things that weren’t perfect, but it was not. You can’t just look at it directly and go, oh, it makes sense because of the family system or upbringing.
And when I started to struggle, they tried to be very supportive. I mean, I can remember them responding well in that, you know, it wasn’t rejection. It wasn’t how could you. It was, let’s get you help. But still it took me probably five years after that initial, okay, everybody knows there’s a problem before I found any meaningful recovery and those were a messy five years. And I didn’t really make a true beginning in this thing until I would say, when I was at a place of readiness, but I think I’d been in a place of readiness a few other times during those rough years. But I would say that my family got to a new place of readiness in their own recovery. And that was not a rough, it was not an easy road for them to get there either.
And so, once I had a little time under my belt, so to speak, and was, you know, starting to enjoy and understand my own recovery journey, you start to talk to my family, you start to see things that changed, that helped this be a catalyst for my own change and their change. And you can’t help but go: “Man, if we had understood this four years ago or five years ago, we could have avoided a lot of pain.” And I don’t want to dwell on the past, but I do want to help other families avoid those pitfalls because my parents were not, you know, their intentions were positive. Their, you know, smart, educated, loving people, but we’re making a lot of decisions that did not serve our family well in regards to how my addiction is affecting my life and the family system. And then even more so as I’ve worked in this field, seeing how essential it is for families to engage in their own recovery, to journey towards at least some moral awareness and change that that’s so essential for the individual struggling with the addiction to change.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. So –
JOSH: Wanting to be a part of it.
JEFF: Yeah, sure. Thank you.
JOSH: Yeah.
JEFF: And then, you know, reflecting on that story, you know, one of the things that I heard you say is that your parents really wanted to help. There was this, you know, four or five year kind of lag time in there. And, you know, they, I think I heard you say is they made some less than optimal decisions. And can you say like a little bit about what those were and what those were from the standpoint of like, you know, excuse me, lessons that other people can learn from. Other parents can learn.
JOSH: Yeah. I would say one of the largest ones, you know, looking back, I think, you know, my mother would agree and I would agree that weren’t really helpful was as soon as I would start any type of recovery program, like rehab drug and alcohol treatment because there were a few in there for me. I had good intentions. And so, once they would see a little bit of sobriety in me, I think there’s this feeling of we have our son back. And I certainly felt like I’m back and I knew my intentions were true. They were. I had a genuine desire to get sober. And I think my parents would see that and then see the light in my eyes again. And then what would happen next is they would start letting me call the shots. As far, so like when it came to aftercare, as we call it in industry or what really happens after this. Like primary residential treatment setting that is the most commonly thought of thing. I think when we talk about like treatment or rehab in our modern culture, I was kinda running the show.
And it wasn’t that I was trying to manipulate or be dishonest, but it was always okay, well, you know, I’m armed with some new self knowledge. And I’m feeling good. And I would argue the case with, you know, these professionals are recommending that I go to X, Y, and Z whether that was some type of new living situation with continued treatment were outpatient, sober living, you know, sometimes getting plugged into a recovery community. Even joining the 12 step community. And I would always say that sounds good, but I’m going to do it my way because of X, Y, or Z, a job, friendships, an apartment. There was always a reason. And it always made sense to me and my parents would co-sign that because I think they saw that I was well intentioned.
And some of those reasons can make sense. Oh, well, he’s got this job to go back to, or he still has an apartment or whatever it is. Some of these reasons can make sense. I talked to families all the time and they’re going: “I know that he needs this program, but I don’t want him to, you know, have to withdraw from college for a semester because that’s gonna, you know, he’s going to feel so bad about himself that he may never recover.” And I’m going: “You know, I get that make sense to you but like if he doesn’t address this, one semester away is going to be probably the least of our concerns.” And so I would say that was the most common thread. And then where that changed is my family never stopped loving or supporting me, but I stopped. They started listening to professionals and not the addict. Yeah.
JEFF: So that was, yeah, that story I think is really important. And that so many family members that don’t really understand addiction and they see it as, you know, a broken leg and hey, your legs been set, you have a cast on it or whatever. And it’s like you’re going to heal.
JOSH: Yeah.
JEFF: And yeah. So then they were, you know, giving you responsibility that they wanted you to have that they hoped you could handle and that you had probably handled years ago just fine. And –
JOSH: Very much so. Yeah.
JEFF: And, I mean, a lot what I see Josh is the, you know, there’s something in the relationship between the individual with addiction and their family and the family really, really, like, I think you framed it really well. Any sign of hope is like, oh my gosh, we have our son back or we have our loved one back or yeah. There they are and now that I see it, it’ll always be there.
JOSH: Yeah. That’s a common thing that I run into a lot with families. And this is funny because I think it mirrors something you see in a lot of people at the, especially early in their recovery journey or seeking to start their recovery journey is what we sometimes call 12 step communities chronic uniqueness. You know, I talk with a lot of mothers, a lot of fathers, a lot of spouses that even after hearing a professional will beg and register that something makes sense and that’s probably the best idea, but are afraid to challenge something they think their loved one wants because they, I think there’s a fear of losing the relationship or losing that person, and they’re already in fear generally around that person, because of the addiction and the crisis it’s created. And so there’s a lot of compromise into thinking it’s going to be different with him and it’s going to be different with me. By previous evidence that it’s not, you know, parents allowing, you know, young adults to move back into the house after failed attempts to keep them sober themselves, things like that. There’s an awareness that yeah, this probably isn’t the best idea but also it could work. You know, it’s going to work for us.
JEFF: Yeah. So oftentimes, you know, I get asked questions that are like, you know, plugging for the silver bullet kind of thing. And like the one that you posed there to have, you know, the loved one move back in, I mean, one of the things that I’ve seen is that there really isn’t a silver bullet. There’s a lot of different factors involved and you know, people are different. And it’s really important that they kind of go deep down inside of themselves to make that decision and they don’t, you know, make it lightly. But I’m wondering from your experience, do you have like criteria that, you know, or for you, is there like a black and white way to think about it or what would be helpful for family members who may be, you know, navigating in this area?
JOSH: I definitely don’t think, so I’ll answer both questions. I definitely don’t think that this is black and white ever. When I meet a professional that says here’s the prescription and the time length on it, I’m probably not going to listen to much else they have to say. There’s a reason that individualized care and treatment plans are so well regarded. Now there’s common threads to what recovery looks like. I think there’s certainly factors that we can identify as milestones on the road to recovery. They often have much less to do with time or the, you know, the amount of time than they do with awareness and self actualization around some important things. But as far as what to tell families in crisis, I like, you know, if I could assign every family in crisis, you know, who is dealing with an addiction of a loved one. I would link them up with a guide, so to speak.
And I would ask the family. I would say, hey, I cannot guarantee. Right? Nobody has any guarantees in this field, but if you do what, you know, this person’s recommending and your loved one does what they’re recommending that they’re going to get sober and stay sober and never have a relapse or any of these things people are afraid of. But I can say that if, you know, you have, you listened to this guy for the next year or two, you will give yourself 100% the best chance for success. And regardless of some of the outcomes, you will definitely put your own family in a position to be okay and happy and functional even if they don’t get immediately healthy and you’ll give them the highest bottom and the quickest path and the best resources to get healthy when they are fully ready to engage it.
And then connect them with somebody like me or you or there’s a lot of good people out there. But I think families tend to do a little bit research and then try to take it and run it themselves. Or they don’t know that they really are going to need a guide for this, for like a whole period. We taught the continuum of care.
JEFF: Right.
JOSH: [inaudible] to be addict. I like to talk about the continuum of care when it relates to the entire family and, but that same voice that can reorient them to truth and keep them on path and remind them of their own truths and encourage them, you know, when it’s time for healthy boundaries and encourage them to engage in their own recovery. That would be what I would give to every family if I could wave my magic –
JEFF: Yeah. From your perspective, what’s your sense that as to like what’s the obstacle there?
JOSH: I mean, a couple of things like, I can’t tell you what totally what the solution is, you know, on this from, but this is one thing we talked about and connected on so well the other day was I think in the spectrum of behavioral healthcare, specifically in relation to addiction, the family having some continuity of care across crisis and recovery. Let’s call it the first year of someone’s road to meaningful recovery. There’s a lot of disconnect in the resources that the family gets. So there’s these huge gaps in continuity of care. And we don’t have, I mean, we’re still learning how to provide continuity of care for the individual in the first year, we’ve got a ways to go there I think, but even more so with the family. And I don’t really know what the solution is. I just know that I wish that was a normal, you know, recommendation when people are seeking help that this was just, it was just part of it. And if there was a normalized expectation of: “Hey this is how you helped your loved one and you’re going to do this at the same time because it’s just, it’s part of it.” But unfortunately that there’s not a ton of great resources. And then sometimes when resources are presented to the family, I think there’s this very common thread of, but this isn’t our problem, it’s his problem.
JEFF: Bingo. Yeah. I see that so, so much. And, you know, specifically with families who are on the front end, they just go through so many struggles for years and then when their loved one is in treatment for more than 30 days, when they get to like an extended care, like a 90 day thing and then go into sober living. Well, a lot of times they don’t even think sober living is needed.
JOSH: Uh ha.
JEFF: For one thing, but they can, you know, there’s this expectation and I don’t like, I think it’s in the air. I’m not really sure it’s personal to them, but there’s this thought that boy, we got Johnny in the treatment and, you know, everything’s gonna be fine and now we can go back to normal. And, you know, I don’t think they can go back to normal. It’s like they need to make some changes too. And, you know, the way I have been framing it is like structural changes and that they can participate in and they have, you know, they’re more responsible and more influential on structural changes than, you know, I want you to change kind of thing.
JOSH: Yeah.
JEFF: But it’s like, that’s so hard to change. And oftentimes, you know, I see it from so many different people in so many different families. It isn’t really personal to them or at least that’s how I’m thinking about. It seems like there’s something in the air or the water or something that, I don’t know, I’m being a little facetious, but –
JOSH: No, but I’m with you. It’s not really this, you know, all these families of addicts just happened to not want to engage in maybe doing some work around their own stuff or their role in the family dynamic that’s usually been negatively impacted by the person in addiction. But I just think that it’s hard to look at our stuff, right? Like, it’s and so when there’s this massive problem in the family and it’s easy to look at the addict and how much usually they’ve changed in their active addiction. And to think that, you know, all this strife that’s been around this person that’s, you know, touching all the family members that if they will just kind of get their “crap” together, you know, quote unquote, then in all the turmoil and everything will stop. And, you know, things can go back to normal or things can get back on track and we can put this behind us, but I think unfortunately that’s not the case. But I think when I put myself in a families position I can understand why that’s the first thought. So much like people in recovery, you know, my first thought about how to get better was not the way either.
And I think those mirror each other. You know, there’s a lot of talk about the codependent in the addict, how our behaviors are kind of mirrors of each other. And I think that’s really true. And I think, you know, if we can just create some awareness to the families that hey, just like I’m not saying that your son is a bad person because of the way he’s acting on his addiction. I’m not saying that you were a bad parent.
JEFF: Right.
JOSH: Or bad loved one, but these are just like damaged dynamics, damaged structures. And if we can take a step back and get you to have some awareness then we’ve got a chance for things to be different.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah -yeah. Well, and I mean one of the ways I have approached this is with family members is, you know, family members nervous system gets activated and stays activated. And the baseline goes up and so the window of tolerance just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And so, like these two nervous systems in relationship. And, you know, one of the things that I try to do is help people just become conscious of what’s happening inside of their own body to where they can use that to help, you know, them regulate their own nervous system and actually take a break when they need a break, which helps to kind of like set a boundary: “Hey, I really want to finish this conversation, but I know anything that comes out of my mouth right now isn’t going to go well, so I need to, you know, step outside for 10 minutes. I’m going to come back. This is important conversation that I mean, something like that.”
JOSH: Yeah.
JEFF: And it’s like I see family members as they have a lot of potential for them to make, like it’s going to be easier for them to make change than the person with addiction. So, that’s just a thought and you know, but like what, what I see so often, specifically is when someone gets in long term recovery that they lead the family into a change process, you know. And I’m kind of thinking, well jeez, isn’t that interesting. And my sense, and I have seen this, but it is not the majority, is that families can make change and they can come together, have unified voice and kind of commit to a healing process. And, you know, there’s times when everybody in the family could be a part of that healing process. I mean, right now what I see is, you know, kind of siloed healing.
JOSH: Yeah. I would agree with that. I think you can absolutely heal like that, right? Like –
JEFF: Oh, yeah!
JOSH: We have individuals get really healthy family dynamics stayed really scary, for lack of a better word or really unhealthy and I have to set, people have to set boundaries that were not fun. They’re were not desired, but they had to be there at the time for the person’s recovery. And I’ve seen families get healthy when an individual did not. And that’s sad too. So, you can certainly di-siloed healings that you mentioned is 100% possible. I just think, I think we’ve got a ton of evidence from recovery, not just from addiction but really in all types of healing that we would talk about it in the behavioral health field that we do better in community. We do better with connection. There’s rarely a more powerful form of connection than the family and that can be used for good and bad. Right? That’s why our family can do, I think, you know, these really powerful harms, especially early in life, but really throughout our entire life. But mostly when we’re working together, I think the most powerful tool for healing and I would certainly like to be a part of a world where that was more common than not.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. Well I’m on that page myself. And it’s like the human connection, I think that is underrated, you know, and I think that is so important. And so often times families are in isolation and, you know, from how I see this, there’s like stigma and shame in the culture. And it wasn’t, you know, I’m not sure exactly how many years, but you know, maybe 50 years ago that families were seen as part of the problem or the problem for their loved one’s addiction. And so, I really understand why families do what they do, but a human connection piece, and I’m sure you’ve seen this too Josh and, but that like specifically, like in treatment centers when, you know, like minded people come together, they start sharing in for information and connect with one another. Like there’s deep relationships, big friendships that go on for years and years and years. And you know, people stay in touch with one another and like that kind of human connection that touches a person. You know, and it’s like it’s and I like, I’m not in AA so I don’t have a big background with that, but I know plenty of people and I have quite a few friends who are and AA seems like a family community. In some ways. it’s like people can be closer to one another in AA than with their own family. And that’s, you know, I get that and I know that the siloed healing does work. And I just think about possibilities with families and there’s different people. So, you know, I think different people can use different resources.
JOSH: Yeah, absolutely. It’s, you mentioned, you know, 12 [inaudible] communities having this like family like dynamic and that was certainly my own experience in recovery. But still to really engage in really healing community I will say that I had, I was, you know, I was always an extroverted kid, an extroverted person, so I had a lot of like friendships. So, it wasn’t that I lacked connection in my life, but one thing that I have never experienced until I was living in a sober home in Dallas, Texas, run by a really talented clinician that I ended up working for a few years after that was did I connect on this deep level, and find what I would call community. And I had to be given tools to do that. I first had to get some awareness around all these deceptions in my own life and what was really going on in my head and my heart and the disconnect between what I would say about myself. You know, my insides did not match my outside. That’s, you know, like a little blind clinical thing to say.
Basically, what’s going on in my thought life and how I feel about myself and others, that’s not what I report, but I have really believe what I report more than what’s actually going on inside of me. So there’s a disconnect, a healing when that’s going on. And so first to have some awareness around that and then be given the tools to actually be fully known in community and then have some openness to hearing feedback from that community. That was the vehicle for change in my life. I mean, I look back on it and it was 100% the thing. And when I talked to people about their recovery stories, you get different, you know. It happened differently for different people. But that’s one of the most common threads, if not the most common thread I would say that I hear is that I found some real community with the, at least a couple of people.
And there was this deeper truth telling going on in what we were saying about ourselves and what we were hearing from other people. And I, with you, I believe that if families could be given those same tools that I was, I had to learned behavior. That was not a natural thing. And I think families just with the history of what goes on in a family, we have all these obstacles to overcome to real intimacy and community because we’ve hurt each other and we’ve, there’s been walls built up and there’s things, but if we could give families those tools, I think that the family itself could be, you know, not just a cool side piece to somebody’s recovery. It’s actually a linchpin or a catalyst for the change. So yeah. I don’t have the answer on how to get all the families those tools. I wish we’re going to figure this out on the podcast.
JEFF: Yeah, no. I don’t think we’re going to figure it out on the podcast. I mean, in my own little world and I do want to share with you at some point more about that, but I’m, you know, I feel like I’m out there –
JOSH: Yeah.
JEFF: – pointing, pointing in that direction, you know, not that I have all the answers either. However, like the connection, the like minded people and empowering people, you know, as opposed to, well I know families like the shame and stigma kind of thing and the, you know, being disempowered. So, and I think, you know, people can learn from one another’s stories. I mean, that’s what happens quite a bit. And like one of the things that I have seen and like, let me know how you see this differently, but it was probably what, six, seven years ago when anonymous people came out. Have you ever seen that movie?
JOSH: Yeah.
JEFF: And like after that came out that seemed to like really change the landscape in the Addiction and Recovery Community to a more people were comfortable talking about their story and putting it out there and sharing it with other people. And, you know, that seemed to be huge. And in my mind, that was again the person in recovery, “in the family or in the community or in the country”, they’re leading the healing process. And I think they are in so many ways. You know, and family members have had their journey and they have their story and they seem to be the, a very likely candidate, a big stakeholder with a big investment either loved one to were, you know, they can join that charge essentially.
JOSH: Yeah.
JEFF: And I guess with a start, just sharing their story. So yeah, I think there’s a lot of possibilities. I know we’re not going to figure it out on this little podcast conversation. [laughing]
JOSH: [laughs] You didn’t pay the big bucks if we could figure it out quick.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. Well, so can I ask a little bit, and if you don’t want to talk about it, let me know, but I’m just curious about like in the situation that you talked about initially with your family, what is that like now?
JOSH: It’s funny to think about because it’s been a while and it’s, you know, a very different dynamic, but I wouldn’t say that I’ve got really great relationships with my family. You know, with each member there was a different journey.
JEFF: Mmhhmmm.
JOSH: I think that’s always, I think that’s normal and to be expected. And I think that’s an expectation that we should be aware of too. Our expectations on our family and loved ones in recovery can get us in trouble if we’re not careful. And so just having some openness to the fact that all those journeys are going to look different because that there’s another person on the other side of the journey when it’s about connection, but, you know, I would say now it’s kind of funny to say, but it’s usually my mom calling me for advice or calling for advice on behalf of other families. You know, she’s walked the journey. And so because of that, you know, friends of friends and mutual connections ended up on her, you know, phone line somehow explaining their situation.
And usually she’ll call me for just a little bit of coaching on maybe how that would be helpful and talking to them. And what I do, you know, I tell her to share our story. That’s how I help people, you can be helpful. And then our relationship I think is, I would say healthier than before the addiction. It’s certainly different, you know, like we have healthy boundaries and that doesn’t mean that we talk less or love each other less or anything like that, but there’s just less of a measurement in some ways. We’ve done our own work and we really love each other and we care for each other and support each other. But, you know, like, I have no problem saying, hey mom, like that’s a conversation I’m just, I probably can’t be much more help to. You know, and she has no problem saying, hey, like, you know, I don’t agree with your decision but you’re an adult and I love you.
JEFF: Wow!
JOSH: And those are things that we could have never said to each other, you know, when I was 20 years old and my addiction was unaware to anyone, you know, really at that point. So, I’m thankful for the journey, certainly with my siblings, let’s say the same thing, you know. And I think again, you see the mirror, like I can look back on my own recovery journey and go man, I’m thankful even though there were some really hard years in there, I’m thankful for the journey because of who have gotten to be through the change process and recovery because just take away the addiction, you know, probably a decent guy, but I don’t think the kind of man that I get to show up today as, and the same with the family, I don’t think I get to have those relationships to where they are today unless we had all walked through this stuff.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. And so, is there anything that I haven’t touched on that you would like to share?
JOSH: I mean, my only thing that I would want to share since we’re talking about families and families getting help is if they’re already families that, you know, listen to this, is please, you know, find somebody you can trust, find a guide in this thing that really understands this journey and the family dynamic and its relation to addiction and really listen. That would be my only ask, you know, is that if you’re listening to this, go find a guide because this is a long journey, but it can be a lot better if we do it together and do it well and believe the help we get. So, go get some help. Stick with it.
JEFF: Great. Thank you.