13 Dr. Dustin Weissman: Internet Addiction Expert
“I’m all for tech, and all for the applications and the great things we’re doing with it. But I’m also all for a balance.”
Growing up, Doctor Dustin Weissman enjoyed the internet and gaming and was known as “Mr. Tv” as a kid to his mom. Being a millennial allowed him to grow with the internet age and the virtual world as it developed over time. While working on his dissertation he researched “MMORPG” (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games) and this has helped him to find his niche and specialty in internet addiction; specifically the five major areas of addiction in gaming, gambling, porn, social media/smartphone, and virtual reality. Tune in as he discusses the positive and negatives of the internet, creating healthy boundaries with your smartphone, three age groups and their suggested screen time use, and how important it is for parents to model the appropriate screen time behavior to set good examples for their children.
Highlights:
01:05 A specialty in internet addiction
07:10 Cooperative and problematic use of technology
15:30 Creating boundaries for screen time
22:40 Appropriate screen time for children/adolescents
32:30 Parents are setting the example
38:05 It’s all about the balance
45:22 Connecting with Dustin
Tweets:
Tune in as @dustin_weissman and @TFRSolution discuss the positive and negatives of the internet, creating healthy boundaries with your smartphone, three age groups and their suggested screen time use, and how important it is for parents to model the appropriate screen time behavior to set good examples for their children. http://thefamilyrecoverysolution.com/ #family #recovery
Quotes:
21:41 “It’s a matter of balancing your use. We just have to understand what is a good balance for us. It’s going to be different for everyone.”
38:35 “I’m all for tech, and all for the applications and the great things we’re doing with it. But I’m also all for a balance.”
Resources:
Tools:
Connect With Dr. Mark
Website: http://www.dustinweissman.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dustinweissman/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/dustin_weissman
Email: weissmanpsychology@gmail.com
Phone Number: 805-601-7098
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
JEFF: Well, hi there everyone. This is Jeff and today my guest is Dustin Weissman. And so, Dustin is an expert with internet addiction. So I’m really looking forward to an inspiring conversation here and to learn some things myself. So, welcome Dustin.
DUSTIN: Thank you. Thank you Jeff for having me.
JEFF: Sure. You’re welcome. And if you could just start by talking a little bit about who you are.
DUSTIN: Yeah. So I earned my doctorate last year from Antioch University in Santa Barbara. And since then I’ve been working on my entire practice where I do specialize in all forms of internet addiction. We like to break it down into five. There’s gaming, gambling, porn, social media or smartphone and virtual reality. Virtual reality is not really there yet, but if you’ve seen Ready Player One or read the book as well, you can imagine where we’re going with that role.
JEFF: Wow. Yeah. Exciting. So this is our reality. And from my understanding, there’s not a whole lot of people with expertise in this area. So what you’re doing, I’m seeing as really, really helpful. I’m glad you’re here. And so, can you talk a little bit about, you know, how you got into this specific niche area?
DUSTIN: Yeah. So I’ve always enjoyed gaming, specifically growing up. And the Internet that was around during the noisy dial up modems AOL that we all remember. You hear it. You recognize it and I saw the progression. So, I’m a millennial and I got to live that transition being bought up in an age where Internet yet await for. And then eventually it got faster and faster and now it’s mobile. And I think that allowed me to sweet spot to be on both ends of technology. But I really discovered this is my passion in terms of my professional career. When I was researching what to do for my dissertation and I came across this article or was it a dissertation on about Camelot and I just put the brakes on. And I said: “Whoa, I can do something that is cool in my mind, Camelot or some kind of fantasy based thing.”
So, I started researching. This is the time that world of Warcraft just came out. So, I looked at that and what MMORPGs or Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games were. I love RPGs or just role-playing games like Zelda, that was my game when I was younger. So in researching this, I found out that I really enjoyed learning about it. It was a new cutting edge thing within psychology. Very few articles back in 2008, 2009. And I decided, all right, I’m going to keep following this and working through it. This times I wasn’t worried there wasn’t going to be enough research for my dissertation interview.
JEFF: Oh! Wow. Wow.
DUSTIN: Fortunately, more came and there’s a lot now. And I published my dissertation last year. It’s been downloaded on all six continents. Probably about 50 countries now have downloaded it. And it’s an online gaming and social factors looking at these MMORPGs. So, when the World Health Organization earlier this year announced online gaming addiction as an actual diagnosis for the ICD-11. And I was ecstatic because this is my area. This is my niche even within the Internet addictions, I love that one.
JEFF: Oh my gosh! I mean, and some of the acronyms and some of the stuff you’re talking about Dustin, it’s like is just going right over my head, you know?
DUSTIN: Yeah. The ICD-11 is the international classification –
JEFF: No.
DUSTIN: Disorders I believe.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the gaming acronyms.
DUSTIN: Yeah. So I try to spell it out nice and slow.
JEFF: [laughs]
DUSTIN: Because I know they are long. And in the title of my dissertation, I did go with it’s the Impacts of Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPGs) on Subjective Sense of Connectedness with Others. And you can download that for free if you’re interested in a nice read that mobile put to sleep. No just kidding. There’s some fascinating stuff in there, but it’s for free on my website DustinWeissman.com. There’s a link to it on the home page.
JEFF: Yeah – yeah – yeah. But what you were talking about with these games is like this is the, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but this is the kind of thing where, you know, a group of people can get into playing a game over time and compete with one another and, you know, come up with a score and compare their score to one another. And maybe, I don’t know, is it like collaborating and being on the same team or competing and I’m doing better than you are kinda thing or all of the above?
DUSTIN: Definitely. All of the above. There’s three main reasons that people engage in gameplay, especially these types of games. One will be hostility. One will be cooperative. And the other will be supportive.
JEFF: Oh, wow!
DUSTIN: So, those are more within the MMORPG realm, but it’s really this engaging of are you helping people, working with people or are you attacking people?
JEFF: Right. Yeah.
DUSTIN: Those are the three main ways we engaged one another. And it is very competitive, especially as you saw this summer with Fortnite and they have different seasons. So, each time the season resets equal trying to do as best as well as they can to get a higher ranking, gives them a lot of different games. As within the MRPGs, you have leveling up, different military based games or first person shooters usually can rise in ranks. So, they all have similar component on that level.
JEFF: Sure. So in listening to what you’re talking about here, I’m thinking about the, you know, the extreme difference or the continuum from like games that are competitive to games that are cooperative. And how do we cooperate? And it also kind of, you know, I think about some of the aspects of the inner internet that are so wonderful and that have contributed to a lot of the technological advances that we have in our society. And on the other side of that is the challenges is, you know, how this is problematic. And yeah. So can you talk a little bit about that continuum and assessing between the two? And specifically how family members may be able to discriminate between the two.
DUSTIN: So, looking at its main, how people are engaged in cooperative and how its being problematic?
JEFF: Right.
DUSTIN: So when people are engaging in cooperatives, social nisher play, it can usually end with no problem. So they can go on for a half hour or an hour and it had their fun. And they can log off and get onto the next thing, [inaudible} basketball practice, whatever it might be, but they have other dynamic parts of their lives that they’re engaging in. It becomes problematic when that person is sitting in the room or holding their mobile phone for too long. If they become stationary for hours on end, not taking a break and affecting their physical health, their biological and social relationships, family relationships. If they’re isolating. If they aren’t engaging in their schoolwork or their actual work. So, when basically as you would see in any addiction where other areas of their life starts to deteriorate, that’s plain. You can see it as problematic.
JEFF: Yeah – yeah – yeah. Right. I think some of it would be pretty obvious and easy to see. You know, specifically if someone is, you know, just online for hours and hours on end and they had very few social relationships. They don’t really engage with the world too much at all. But I’m kind of thinking too then there’s schools and there’s programs like, you know, I have a program in a community for family. And the whole thing is online and you think, you know, I see real value and benefit there. And of course no one is online for, you know, hours and hours on end there. But it’s like, and, you know, maybe it’s not that easy to tell, but it’s like being able to talk about some of the gray area, you know? Because one of the things that I’ve seen is that, you know, for instance, if there’s like an alcohol addiction or drug addiction or something like that, that they can get in recovery from that. They can have a number of years of sobriety, but then they get into some other kind of activity that kind of excites the brain chemistry in the addictive way and they can really, really get into that. And so, can you talk a little bit about how to navigate that line?
DUSTIN: Yeah. So one thing is mentioned earlier in talking about with the online educational on that piece first. So, with online education, that’s something that we don’t necessarily need to worry about. Yes, it is screen time. However, it’s education. Your dopamine is not being released quite in the same way as if you’re engaging in a game with all the reward system built into the games that tend to keep you there. And to excite you and to have you felt good. Education it’s stimulating your brain in a different way. It’s having a different effect. Imagine sitting in a class for three hours watching your teacher talk and looking at videos and seeing him writing on chalk board. You know, we can do that and we’re engaged in a random way, especially if you’re taking notes. I’d highly recommend if you’re doing all my education, take notes on all my lectures. That’ll really help taking a break from the screen because you have to look down at your notepad. And so, hopefully there’s an audio component, but also getting a construction and moving around.
We don’t have our classes and all education for the most part. You don’t have a back to back to back to back. There’s recess, there’s lunch, there’s walking through between class. So it’s really important to get up and move around even if it’s just for five minutes, but some kind of exercise in that realm will be really helpful for separating out the stationary aspect of it. So an online education, I think it’s fine and wonderful. And I know it’s benefited thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people out there. And I’ve actually tutored people in online classes, but it’s always just one class at a time so you can break it up. I’ve taught blended learning where we do online portions and then we’d meet in class for lecture. So, there’s a whole bunch of different ways technology and screens will be integrated into education. So that’s something I wouldn’t worry about so much in terms of that end of the gray area.
Now you’re probably looking more where it really gets gray, like homework assignments but then I’ll have to look up a Youtube video. Oh, I saw that Youtube video for class. But then now I started watching the next recommended Youtube video, which isn’t quite for class, but I’m interested because it’s controversial. And then the next one and the next one. So, basically staying mindful. What am I looking at right now and is that relevant to what I’m supposed to be doing or what I want to be doing? Or did I fall down the rabbit hole. And I’m guilty. I’ve done it. And we’ve all done in a falling down the rabbit hole with Internet content. You can do that very easily with Instagram and other forms of social media, Facebook, just scrolling, finding next story, Youtube, Netflix. They autoplay things for you. And they don’t give you a chance to go to the bathroom anymore. It’s like: “The next episode starts in three, two, one.” [laughs]
JEFF: [laughs]
DUSTIN: So a quick recommendation on that is watched the first five minutes of an episode of a TV show. If you’re trying to get pass the cliffhanger and then stop, so you can go five minutes into the next episode. So figuring out what the juicy thing that was going to happen, that cliffhanger is, and stop, walk away, do whatever it is that you want to get away from. Did I answer the question? I’m not 100% sure.
JEFF: Yeah. And I probably, you know, asking multiple questions at the same time. The thing that I was curious about is the kind of going from one addiction to another. One addiction that is, you know, seen as being more harmful to an addiction that is less harmful perhaps. Like going from drinking a lot to then stopping drinking, but then doing other behaviors that engage that same sequence of neuron firing. Yeah. So, and do you have any thoughts or ideas about, you know, how to notice that if it’s in someone else or if it’s in oneself?
DUSTIN: It’s a lot easier to notice it in somebody else. Very, very difficult to notice it in yourself. I’ll address yourself first. If it’s something related to a smartphone use, you can easily install a tracker of your time that you’re using on your phone. Apple has moment and android systems have, well a whole bunch, but I like using quality time. So is the two that I recommend. In terms of other behaviors like, you know, watching too much TV, playing too many games, things like that would be just a matter of blocking off time for it. And giving yourself a little bit of leeway so that you can finish whatever it is that you’re on. So let’s say I’m gonna do homework after school and then I’ll give myself from five to seven to play games, like Fortnite for example. As long as my homework is done. So it could be contingent on getting your other necessities met because this is recreational. And if you, let’s say it’s 6:45 and you know a Fortnite game on average might take about 20 minutes to 30 minutes, make no longer an hour. So 6:45 bad idea to start a new one. So without knowing to stop, so maybe your cut will be 6:30. I don’t start a new game but I can play until seven.
JEFF: I see.
DUSTIN: Knowing what it is that – how the length of time that you need to be doing something. If you’re watching TV show, you’ll know exactly how long it is. And then maybe give yourself that extra five minute buffer at the end to watch the cliffhanger for the next episode. So yeah. With other addictions like gambling per se, maybe allocating either a budget or just if you can stop completely and probably the best thing if it’s become problematic. But if not then allocating some kind of a budget. I’m willing to spend $100 this week on gambling, not 5,000. However it might be.
JEFF: Right – right – right. Wow – wow. Yeah. I’m really interested in what you’re saying specifically about the boundaries and scheduling time and keeping on track. And like with the process addictions, I really see how family’s role is very different than with the substance addictions. And family can be kind of play an accountability role with the schedule with the time. And what you were saying like, for one self, tracking one’s time. So it can be a both end kind of thing. Someone can track their time and they can have accountability with a family member or something like that. This is. Yeah. Yeah. I really, really like what you’re seeing. So, can you talk a little bit about some of the extremes or the variables in what you’re seeing with Internet addiction?
DUSTIN: Well, the extremes are very dynamic and interesting cases as you would see in any kind of therapeutic practice or even in the research. The extreme for an addiction is death. That is the extreme. There have been cases in Asia specifically where people have played too long and because of that, they’ve been stationary and it developed pulmonary embolisms and that’s traveled. And then you get a blood clot and you have deep vein thrombosis and basically it really results in the pulmonary embolism or a heart attack. And then from there, there’s been a few cases in Asia where people have just passed away in their seats while gaming. So, that’s the extreme. I think there’s been about 12 cases in the last 10 years that I know of, actually I haven’t been looking at the research on the last few years, but between 2008 and 2013, that was probably about 12.
JEFF: Oh my gosh! That’s not something that I generally even correlate in my mind. So yeah. Thank you for bringing that front and center.
DUSTIN: Yeah. But I don’t want to scare anybody out there. That is the ultimate extreme. So as long as you’re checking on people and they’re not gaming for, you know, over a 20 hour period, then it’s be to okay. Most people, 99.9% of gamers don’t die. So that’s the ultimate extreme. I like to relate it more to an all internet addictions to eating disorders. Because in today’s modern world, we need technology to survive. Yes, we could live without it. But if you’re in an integrated with today’s communities and society, you’re most likely engaging in technology use. So it’s a matter of using it appropriately. Just like with eating disorders, you can’t not eat. You can’t just take away all food and survive. You will die if you don’t not eat. We know that. So start with that.
And with technology, essentially, you could starve in the world. You could still survive physically, but in terms of your day to day at work, it will be hard pressed to completely be removed from technology. And we’re surrounded by it. So, it’s a matter of balancing your use, which you alluded to earlier, that we just have to understand what is a good balance for us. And it’s going to be different for everyone, you know. For one person, maybe they need to completely remove their smartphone technology and just make their, you know, go to a flip phone so they’re not tempted. For somebody else, maybe it’s only engaging at looking at social media for a half hour a day at the end of the day. So they’re not getting overwhelmed by all the stories and the news and getting lost in the rabbit hole or for a gamer might be just gaming for that one hour.
JEFF: Yeah. Wow. Well thank you for talking about that. That’s not something that I think about a lot, you know. So I really appreciate hearing some of the distinctions there. And then, so from the standpoint of families, can you talk a little bit about and I know you can because we’ve had this conversation, but that is so families that have a child who spends a lot of time engaging in that world. So, how could family start to set up a structure or schedule and what would that look like or some of the conversation sound like?
DUSTIN: Yes. So I’ll break this up between two age groups. One will be, actually three age groups. The first one is 0-2. My recommendation and the Internet addiction specialists out there pretty much in agreement from 0-2, zero screen time. Absolutely no screen time, with one exception and that is video calls to grandma. You can do video calls on screen time because of the nature of the interaction, that’s okay. But you want to limit that to about 20 hours, I’m sorry, 20 minutes a day, if that much.
JEFF: Right.
DUSTIN: Beyond age 2. From age 2-11, I would say try to keep it under two hours. I know as they get older it gets a little more challenging. And when I say screen time, I mean all screen time, computer screen, TV screen, phone screen, tablet screen, all device screens or screens. So I make exceptions. For example, if we’re going to go see a movie, you know, I won’t say: “Okay, it’s been two hours and movies got another 15 minutes that we got to go.” [laughs]
JEFF: [laughs]
DUSTIN: I don’t do that. I’ll let us watch a movie or a movie at home. You know, those are fine. But just on a day to day goals or aims to try to keep it under two hours. What I do with my kids is I let them earn their screen time. So they can either earn it in the morning by getting ready for school, washing up and getting dressed on their own. Or the night before by doing the nighttime routine and getting into bed and staying in bed, they can earn screen time. I also include in their sweets for them, that they can earn their sweets. And if they don’t do what they need to do then they don’t under if the next day, which is kind of good in the way that if they’re misbehaving later, it doesn’t matter because I already earned it earlier or vice versa.
So basically from age – elementary school to make it simple. Elementary school and preschool and so forth. If you’re seeing Internet addiction as a problem, that’s a parental problem. It’s a matter of guidelines because those kids aren’t getting that tech on their own. They can’t. If it’s a smartphone, you can easily take it away from them. When they get to be older it gets more challenging. So in middle school they get wiser. The last thing I’ll say on the elementary school is I know a lot of schools do issue computers, so just monitoring their use. Making sure that they’re using that computer for schoolwork, that’s fine. So, I also counted in that two hours.
So, in the middle school, high school population, so that’s the other age. From middle school up to young adults, I would allow them probably up to four hours of screen time but still keeping the same rigid schedule. And not until they can, you know, have done everything they need to do, homework, chores, other responsibilities. The leisure time I think should be earned and it should come after all responsibilities and also from cut off time. So, let’s say 8:00 PM, you turn in your devices and no devices in the room, that’s an important one. Do you want – for families out there listening, keep devices out of your kid’s room and also model the behavior. So it’s recommended to plug your devices in or put them away one hour before you go to bed. That’ll just help your brain naturally fall into sleep better. So if you’re staring at a screen, especially if you don’t have a blue light filter on. The blue light is tricking your brain into thinking it’s daytime, which influences your circadian rhythm and it throws it out of balanced. So, not looking at any screens, especially the smartphone screens or tablet screens during that time. That be really helpful.
JEFF: Wow. Wow. Yeah. I really appreciate the different stages. And when you were talking about that 0-2 stage, I was thinking about a friend who has a granddaughter who is in that age group. And it was just this conversation and she was going, oh my gosh. She just like gets out the phone and she knows – and she plays with her mom’s phone. And she knows how to find music. The music that she wants to listen to. And the grandmother who’s a friend of mine was just blown away with this whole kind of thing. Like how could she understand this? How could she remember how. And so yeah, it’s very, very different for someone who didn’t grow up with this and to someone who this is a part of their growing up. It’s fascinating to me.
DUSTIN: Yeah. And also I want to let parents know out there that you can’t stay ahead of your kids on technology. Just stop trying now. I know that parents try to control their kids and their tech use, but then you’re trying to go around them and you’re influencing, you’re breaking the trust. There’s no trust in that relationship, that kids feel that they’re not being trusted, but also that they can’t trust their parents because of this sneaky ways they maneuver. So being very upfront and clear with tech use. If you go to the [inaudible] movie.com or common sense media, you can find a link to a tech talk Tuesdays. And it’s a great thing by Dr Ross. And she puts out just little talking points for every Tuesday to have tech free dinners and talk about your technologies. So, you can be really upfront, clear on how you’re using your tech. What are you doing, what’s exciting about it, what are the pros, what’s not going well? Is there any cyber bullying going on? Do you see anything interesting in the news lately? How did that make you feel? Things along that line. Really giving forum for adolescents especially to communicate how they’re being influenced by their tech use, which will increase their mindfulness of their use.
JEFF: Right. And I’m going back to what you were saying about the two hours a day kind of thing. And even in that two hours is if they need the computer for learning, then that’s in that two hours. Wow.
DUSTIN: Yeah. Yeah. They’re looking at the screen. I mean, I’ll be flexible. If they have to do an hour long assignment on a screen and they want to just relax and watch TV. I’m not saying it’s a hard and fast rule, it’s just a matter of balance. They’re probably not going to have to stare at their screen for two hours a day for homework. I know a lot of books are online and they have to access them that way. So, yeah. They have three hours of homework that they need to do on a screen and then they want to play video games.
JEFF: Yeah.
DUSTIN: Did they earn it? Did they do what they need to do. And, you know, maybe take a break in between those two activities. So it’s more of a guidelines not hard [inaudible].
JEFF: Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I liked the idea from the parent’s perspective to have the guideline be around time. And then giving them choice as to how they want to use that time. And like one of the things that I thought of was, well, so do you give the phone to your child who you may want to contact them and then they could do whatever they want with it. But then there’s also ways to make it to where it’s used as a phone and they can’t really use it for anything else. I’m guessing.
DUSTIN: Yeah. Yeah. So you can do a flip phone or a dumb phone or you can use smartphone and take off all the abilities of a smartphone. You can. They’re always around adults and kids are always around adults somewhere. Somebody’s watching them. They need to be watched by somebody unless they’re, you know, an adolescent that maybe can watch themselves. But they’re at home you can get a home phone. If you need to call the school, if they are at school, that’s fine. My daughter asked me yet, like a couple weeks ago: “When am I going to get a smartphone?” And asked her why. She said: “In case I need to contact you while I’m waiting for you to pick me up.” “I’ll get you a walkie talkie.” So you can go get yourself a walkie talkie for your kids as long as you’re close enough in range.
JEFF: [laughing]
DUSTIN: If you’re trying to pick them up and you didn’t know where they are, you can just walkie talkie it. My daughter’s very resourceful. She – in the last few weeks, as I told, I think two or three parents, my phone number to contact me to let her know some very mundane detail about her where she is. Like, we went to high school football game and she went down with her school to go like give high five to the football team. As they came out, and I was getting us food, but she was with her friend. And she had her friends Mom call me to let me know. I can see you. I’m only 20 feet away. But she has that resource and there’s always adults around. And as long as the kids comfortable enough in going with one. And if not you get walkie talkies. We survived thousands of years without smartphones, so kids can do it. Just give them a little credit.
JEFF: Yeah – yeah – yeah – yeah. Wow. This is – and the other thing that you said that I would like you to elaborate on a little bit and that is the topic of mindfulness. So can you say a little bit more about how you see and specifically how parents can engage more mindfulness in this navigating process.
DUSTIN: Yeah. Well, I mean, it starts with the parents and we may have talked about how parents are setting the example. So, it’s hard to look at ourselves and see what we’re doing as parents, but we have to look at our own smartphone use and our own tech use. If you’re on the phone a lot around your kid and your kids gain two messages. One, that whatever is on this screen is more important than you. And two, well, actually let’s focus on that one for a second.
JEFF: Yeah.
DUSTIN: So –
JEFF: That’s a huge one right there.
DUSTIN: Yeah. If somebody is looking at – this is for anybody, parents to parent, adult to adults, whoever it is to another person. If you’re looking at a screen, that moment you’d take your attention away from the person’s taking their time and it’s physically in front of you. You’re saying that this screen is more important. You can wait. It should be the other way around saying that you know, I’m with somebody right now. Can I talk to you later or I can look at this app later. I can check my email later. And if you do need to do it for work, let the kid know. Be very clear enough in front of your kids. I’m checking my emails. You know, by me working from, mobiley on the phone. This allows me more time with you, but sometimes I has to respond to a phone call or email or text. Letting them know, you could show them the screen. Like, look I’m working right now.
JEFF: Yeah.
DUSTIN: When they see that, then they wonder is diminished. You know, the fear of the unknown type of situation where I don’t know what’s on that screen. I can’t fight it but I don’t know it. At least when the baby brother you can, you know, bang on them, make them cry to get their attention to you as a kid until we see. You guys have jealousy that they’re not getting any attention. But it’s very hard to get the parents off their phone from their hand because you’re not getting your attention.
JEFF: What really caught my attention Dustin, that I really, really like about what you’re saying and that is clear communication. Just saying: “Hey, I’m checking my email right now. Or I’m waiting for this important message to come in and it’s a part of my work. And so I’m going to be shifting my attention there for just a moment but I want you to know that you’re still important.” I mean, however that message is sent, but just the clear communication. And one of the things I’ve seen in families over and over and it’s just a pattern with families with addiction, but that is that clear communication does not exist. And each person is in such an activated state. They’re imagining the thoughts and feelings of everyone else and acting as if their thoughts and feelings are true. But that just is so simple, but at the same time, so powerful and so profound really. So thank you for bringing in that point.
DUSTIN: Yeah. And the second one was based on social learning theory. If you’re modeling this behavior of being on a smartphone all the time, what do you think your kids can do when they get theirs? And just fast forward a few years and being: “Okay, do I want my adolescent child or young adult child to be staring at their screen all the time and not talking to me anymore? And is that what I’m doing to them? Is that the message I’m sending to them?”
JEFF: Right.
DUSTIN: So, if the answer is no. If you don’t want to have them that way and it’s very important to put the phone down or away when you can and when you need the phone to explain what you’re doing and why you’re doing it.
JEFF: Beautiful. I love that. Wow. So are there some points here and like towards the end of this conversation I want to ask about your contact info and I think you have a program. And all of that kind of thing. But before we get to that, are there some other points here that you wanted to communicate?
DUSTIN: Yeah, I do. I feel that I come across as very anti-tech and that is not the case. I love technology. I use it daily. I’m a huge fan of it. I love gaming when I had time for it, which I don’t anymore. And I just enjoy using tech to relax. My mom called me Mr TV when I was a kid because I’d come home from school, I’d curl up in a little armchair and put myself down for a nap while watching TV. Like I was easy, I was low maintenance.
JEFF: Yeah.
DUSTIN: And I’m all for tech. I’m all for the applications and the great things we’re doing with it but I’m also for a balance. And I’ve just seen us go past and teetering on the edge of imbalance where it’s problematic. And the term in the field is problematic internet use. That’s one of the leading terms for this because it’s not quite an addiction for many people. It’s just problematic. So fixing, you know, you could fix a problem. And it’s very easy to do. When I started tracking my time on my phone, I saw I was using it maybe four to six hours a day. Now, I’m using it about one and a half to three hours a day. And I can see which app I’m using and when I’m using it the most. S,o that’s that mindfulness, being aware of how I’m using it.
JEFF: Yeah. And so specifically with that, you mentioned two different apps for that, one for an Apple phone and one for the smartphone or –
DUSTIN: Yes. So for IOS you can or for Apple you can use Moment which is there. I think it’s singular might be Moments but I’m pretty sure its Moment and that’s a smartphone tracker. And the one that I personally use on my android phone is Quality Time. They’re both free. And Apple’s actually done some good controls recently. They’ve been updating their parental controls, which gives you a little more power over your children’s phones as well.
JEFF: Yeah – yeah. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that again. And I know with myself several months ago I found out that I could turn the screen into black and white?
DUSTIN: Yes.
JEFF: So I did that and it, you know, was that way for a couple months. And then all of a sudden something happened and it went back to color. And it was like: “Oh my gosh, Dustin. It was like, huge just in how I felt when I looked at the screen and I never would have guessed that.
DUSTIN: Yeah. Challenge all your listeners right now to try a day or so with going to black and white on their smartphones.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. That would, I mean, I think that’s a great little experiment for everyone. And it’s pretty, I mean, it’s pretty, what’s the right word? Low risk because you can still get to the phone, but you’re seeing everything in black and white. And I know for myself when it just, something happened and it went back to color, but when that happened it was like there’s like a whole new world. You know. So yeah, I really appreciate the learning more about the potential for problematic internet or screen use. The extreme of addiction. And let me ask one more time. Any other points that you, that family members could find real value in here?
DUSTIN: Yeah. So, I like that we’re talking about the smartphone. Another recommendation I can make is turning off your push notifications. So every time you get an email or a Facebook update or Instagram update, that you don’t get notified. And you can just make a time for yourself to go in and check to get caught up with the day because the notifications will still be in there. It just won’t show up on your screen.
JEFF: Right.
DUSTIN: So that’s just the push notification. And you can go into each apps settings and disable it. And also if you want, you can take them off of your home screen. And you can even uninstall them and go on your computer and check them at a certain point in a day if you want to check so often. I have a habit of gaming on my phones. Not so much recently, but I’ll play like one game and I’ll get into it. I’ll play it from numerous hours and I will recognize it, especially with these tracker apps and then I’ll uninstalled it because I know it’s not worth it. And spending too much time on it.
JEFF: Oh Wow.
DUSTIN: That’s my personal habit. Find a new one, play for awhile and then realize I’m playing too much and then I’ll just uninstall it.
JEFF: Oh my gosh.
DUSTIN: So, cold turkey.
JEFF: Yeah.
DUSTIN: Find a new one.
JEFF: Well and that’s part of the mindfulness stuff that you were talking about. And in your own process, you know, you have a lot more experience and knowledge and awareness of what’s going on to just kind of go to start to recognize that started getting to be a problem here, uninstall. Done.
DUSTIN: Yeah, exactly.
JEFF: Yeah.
DUSTIN: Because I don’t need it. It’s not important to me. It’s just a game.
JEFF: When you were talking about push notifications, I remember like, I did not grow up with screens, so, so much of this is not my world, but push notifications were happening. Like every time I would get an email, I would like, I would have my phone off but it would still kind of like do this little vibration kinda thing. And it’s like – and a friend pointed it out to me said: “Hey, just turn that off. That’s no big deal.” And I’m going: “Well, show me how to do it.” Like, I really got it. Just like the subtle little dopamine rush with just that little vibration kind of thing. Like I didn’t check it normally but I felt it and it was just kind of a little interruption. So, yeah. There’s so much in this whole technology saying that, on one side is incredibly wonderful and on the other side is really problematic. It’s just like this is not a black and white issue which really inspires everyone. Hopefully my language to inspires everyone to like, let’s work with the gray and what you’ve been talking about, you know, I thank you very much because you’ve given a lot of tips and value for people to work with the gray here with themself and others. And then can you talk a little bit about how people could connect with you? You were telling me about a program, some of the stuff like that.
DUSTIN: Yeah, so I have a private practice in Calabasas. I’m currently at neuroscience psychology. And I see people for individual and group as well as psycho psychological assessments. So if you need to reach me, you can look that up. Neuroscience psychology should be up and running similar revamping the website, but you can also call my office line, which I don’t know, you want me to give that out? I don’t know if I should.
JEFF: However you want people to get hold of you.
DUSTIN: Yeah, just no prank calls people, but (805) 601-7098. If you need, if you have any consultation type questions, you can email me that’s my best, WeissmanPsychology@gmail.com. That’s W-E-I-S-S-M-A-N P-S-Y-C-H-O-L-O-G-Y @gmail.com. That’s why the best. And then on my own personal website you can contact me from DustinWeissman.com. The program I’m also developing, actually just finished writing it a couple of weeks ago. It’s a brief six session treatment model combination, psychoeducation and intervention for all Internet addictions. And that should be available starting next month. So if you are local to southern California then you’re more than welcome to give me a call and see if that’s right for you. And I’m also running educational and therapy support groups for navigating the balance of techies. That’s the name of the group, Navigating the Balance of Tech Use. And it’s broken up by middle school, high school, transition age youth, which is 18 to 29 and parents or adults. So you don’t have to be, if you’re a parent, you don’t have to have your kid in the group and if your kid is not in a group, you can still be in the parent group. It doesn’t matter. You can do one or both or however many you want your family to join. I don’t have anything set up right now for out of state, but you can always give me a call or email me with quick questions and I can send you some resources.
JEFF: Do you have any plans for like some online learning around this or is kind of contradictory to what you’re doing?
DUSTIN: No it isn’t. It’s not. That you’re on going on their screens and learn about screen time?
JEFF: [laughing]
DUSTIN: [laughs] No, I mean, I do a lot of my research online and that’s fine. If you are looking for resources, I definitely have those, insurance in my own online education. I mean, I’m doing things like this, podcasts and interviews for different articles, or on TV or wherever it might be but, and also getting out in the community and talking. But it’s beyond that in terms of having an actual educational platform for this. My goal is with this program to get it, we’re going to do some, right now from the pilot stage, so to get data to make sure it’s effective and tweak it as needed. Once that’s done, we’ll probably start rolling it out to some schools and training them to use it as an intervention technique for their own students. Especially because of the psychoeducation, it teaches about the healthy internet use, but there’s so much more to it. It goes on and it incorporates monastery, cognitive behavioral therapy, motivational interviewing, reality therapy, and then, other areas within Internet addiction specialty.
JEFF: Yeah. Great. Well, thank you very much Dustin. I really appreciate it. And I’m gonna be watching from a distance as things unfold here. And yeah, again, thank you very much and I wish you a lot of success going forward because we really need what you’re offering. Thank you.
DUSTIN: My pleasure, Jeff. Thank you again for having me today.