55: Dr. Seth Kadish, Author of “Popping Your Patterns” Talks About His 3 Most Common Patterns in Families with Addiction and What To Do About Them.
“When we change our pattern, often that entire family starts shifting without even realizing that they’re doing it.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
Patterns- something that all people possess that they don’t even recognize. This conversation will shed light on how patterns naturally happen through the course of life. Though they move us in routine, patterns help us cope and defend ourselves. However, some of them are not beneficial to us or our family in any way and needs to be tweaked. Here’s a list of the top 3 common patterns in families with addiction from Dr. Seth Kadish. Rewrite your life with a new set of pattern that truly makes you feel safe and secure.
Highlights:
01:01 Working with Varied Systems
03:12 Searching for System Patterns
06:43 The Negative Pattern of Thought-Emotion-Behavior
17:24 Addressing Addiction Patterns – Go Below
21:36 Caught in the Pattern
28:54 ‘The Positives and Negatives of You’ Exercise
32:55 The Top 3 Addiction Patterns
40:30 Intervention: Breaking the Patterns
Resources:
Pop Your Patterns: The No-Nonsense Way to Change Your Life by Dr. Seth Kadish
Go below your driving force! @TFRSolution interviews Dr. Seth Kadish on how people can break their loops and acknowledge the value in themselves. #Top3patterns#shame #peoplepleasing&caretaking #supression #popyourpatterns Share on X
About Dr. Seth Kadish
Empathy can become a really rewarding investment. Dr. Seth Kadish had searched for patterns in every system he worked with- foster care, social work, probation youths, and even in maximum-security prison. “I am just like them”, he said. In a sense, people are more similar than they are different. Equipped with passion, Dr. Seth tries to find a common, simple language that he can communicate with. He still uses this approach in his rounds as the Director of Group Therapists at Psychological Care & Healing Center (PCH) in Mar Vista. Recently, he launched his book, Pop Your Patterns to help people break from their loops and change the way they live their lives.
Connect With Seth:
Email: drsethck@aol.com (preferred)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seth-kadish-5721695
Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/seth.kadish
Quotes:
06:28 “My aim is to help them and not hurt them.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
06:47 “All human beings have negative patterns of thought, emotion and behavior. We all have them.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
07:26 “There’s no right or wrong to patterns, because they all evolve as ways of coping with, protecting ourselves, defending within our early environments.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
22:02 “Familiarity breeds an illusory sense of safety and security. They don’t really make us safer, more secure. Again, it’s a phantom.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
32:22 “It’s so important to make sure that we acknowledge what is valuable about ourselves.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
33:25 “…shame kills, because it kills in the obvious ways…”–Dr. Seth Kadish
44:05 “You don’t beat yourself up for reverting to it.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
44:27 “When we change our pattern, often that entire family starts shifting without even realizing that they’re doing it.” –Dr. Seth Kadish
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
Jeff Jones: So welcome everyone. This is Jeff Jones with another episode on the Podcast Families Navigating Addiction And Recovery. And today I am here with Seth Kadish if I pronounced that right, Kadish. And I’m really excited to learn more about him. I’m just meeting him for the first time, and he has done a number of different things, and the mental health and addiction field. And one of them is, he’s the author of a book Pop Your Patterns, which I’m gonna be asking him more about. So Seth, welcome.
Seth Kadish: Oh, thanks Jeff. Thanks for having me. I appreciate that.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, if we could start just by you, saying more about who you are, how you want to introduce yourself.
Seth Kadish: Sure, okay. So I’m a licensed clinical psychologist in the state of California. My current title is director of group therapy, at a mental health facility in Marvis to California called PCH. I also have an affiliation with milestones wrench Malibu on the form of clinical director. And I currently still do, I still do patterns groups there, had been there for 14 years. We have quite a long run. Yeah–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Denise Klein, and I go back a long way, and she’s a dear friend and colleague, and I’ve done work patterns type of work, particularly in a group format for various other treatment centers in the LA area, including promises in the Canyon and so forth. Just to add a quick note, I wanted to mention this, the patterns work, which I could tell you a little bit more about. It evolved from my earlier work, which is foster care social work, followed by a number of years working with probation youth, and very significantly working for five years in maximum security prison working with felons. So, I have a very, very, very background, and it’s really where the patterns were formed, and it’s a real passion for me.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, oh my gosh, wow. Well, I’m really excited to have this conversation. One, because in our introduction through Denise, she spoke very highly of you from the standpoint of, you know, being an expert with group therapy, with groups in general with systems, and patterns are in systems. And the three things that you mentioned there, the foster care, probation and working with felons in prisons, those are all systems–
Seth Kadish: Right.
Jeff Jones: –that have patterns.
Seth Kadish: –Right. Or people have patterns, and systems, and families.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Seth Kadish: Which I know is such an area of interest for you, and a commendable, laudable area of interest.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Are ramped into families.
Jeff Jones: So, can you talk a little bit about how your curiosity, and interest, and then work, and study with patterns evolved?
Seth Kadish: Sure, thanks Jeff. So, I alluded before to the patterns work Cabinet’s Genesis in my early work, and one of my early experiences when I was an up and coming therapist was working with probation girls, at a place called Penny Lane. It’s pretty well known, and well respected group home, actually serves as a group homes in southern California. And, what I found early on was that my training, like so many of us, my training was in diagnosis, in sophisticated psychological language and on and on. And you know, I’m from Brooklyn, New York
Jeff Jones: –(laughs)
Seth Kadish: –and by nature I’m pretty plainspoken. And then, I realized that these girls, they do great with clean spoken language. And, let’s say for argument’s sake, just pointing out to grow, and you’re really angry, or you’re very defensive, or words that they could understand concepts that they could understand. And then, as I met work with Denise, she pointed out to me, well, what you’re really doing is you’re seeing their patterns of thought, emotion and behavior–
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Seth Kadish: –and she can crystallize what became a theory in a book and so forth. But really it was just trying to find common or simple language that I could communicate with others, and they would get what I was saying. That was again, the Genesis.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, wow. I like that, I like that. So very simple, understandable way to communicate with people who were in the role of needing help.
Seth Kadish: Yes, exactly, exactly.
Jeff Jones: And you’re not coming in there laying some psychobabble kind–
Seth Kadish: (laughs)
Jeff Jones: –of diagnosis on them.
Seth Kadish: –Right, it doesn’t mean anything to them. And then, another thing I discovered early on, which it sounds very obvious, but I’ve, unfortunately watched other Clinicians missed the boat on this, is whether they were teens, or felons, or celebrity, or whoever it was. I still to this day and very careful to ask people’s permission to point out the pattern. I don’t go in there unwarranted, by the way, it’s a lesson that my mom taught me when I was a kid, which was, don’t tell people about themselves, or what to do, or give unsolicited advice. It’s usually not very welcome. So, I think that was something else that I picked on early on.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –I work with teens, and when people are receptive, and they want to know, well, what do you see? Wow, that’s, we could do a lot with that.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I love the step of asking permission, and so I’m curious, have you ever asked that question and gotten a no?
Seth Kadish: (laughs) Yes, and I always tell people, I love your no, what I don’t really want, it’s not productive, is yeah, waffling a maybe short, in fact, Jeff, when people waffle, if they say, well yeah, then I pull back.–
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Seth Kadish: –I don’t want to injure anybody with the patterns work.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –To be quite frank, and also to tell them myself a little bit. When I first started doing the work, I was out much more Brooklyn and Blunt. And there were some clients that age just loved it, and other people I could tell it wasn’t serving them, and maybe it was really bugging them. So, I really made sure to be that much more considerate of the client because after all night, my aim is to help them and not hurt them.
“My aim is to help them and not hurt them.” –Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –So,
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow, wow. So, how do you want to get into talking a little bit more about patterns?
Seth Kadish: Sure, okay, yeah, I’d love to. So, here’s the basic concept. All human beings have negative patterns of thought, emotion, and behavior. We all have them. I’m gonna talk a little bit later about patterns that I see that pop up a little bit more in the drug and alcohol world that maybe families can be aware of, things that might be helpful.–
“All human beings have negative patterns of thought, emotion and behavior. We all have them.” –Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: Sure.
Seth Kadish: –So, we all have these patterns. Some common examples are depression, anxiety and shame. Of course people pleasing, caretaking, displaced anger, avoidance, isolation. And, in my book I literally provide six pages of patterns, as well as five different categories that the patterns tend to fall into.
Jeff Jones: –ehm.
Seth Kadish: –I also make the point, Jeff, that there’s no right or wrong to patterns because, they all develop as a way of coping with protecting ourselves, defending within our early environments. So, if I’ve got, I have a quick story I like to share with you. It’s a story that I tell my clients to introduce the patterns work.–
“There's no right or wrong to patterns, because they all evolve as ways of coping with, protecting ourselves, defending within our early environments.” –Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: Excellent.
Seth Kadish: –Meat of the story and then I’ll go back, and kind of point out the meat of the story, the purpose of the story. So, this is a composite story based on many clients that I worked with, and it has to do where they, little four year old boy named Jimmy.
Jeff Jones: –Ehm.
Seth Kadish: –Jimmy, just a wonderful little kid, and he’s in his home. It’s two in the afternoon, he’s with his dog Bucky, the golden retriever, and people always like a golden retriever thrown in there. His mom is in the kitchen, his mom is on the alcoholic side, shall we say. It’s two in the afternoon, and she’s washing the dishes, she’s got half a bottle of wine already down, you know. She’s got a glass sit next to her, there’s a cigarette dangling out of her mouth. She’s bitter, she’s unhappy, she’s gotten a lot of problems. So that’s the mom.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –All right, now Jimmy and his dog, they are romping through the house having a lot of fun, and having a great time. And, as they run through the living room, accidentally run into an end table. And, on the end table is mom’s favorite buzz [inaudible] boom, crash, a thousand pieces. So, now mom comes of the kitchen, and the cigarettes dangling out of her mouth. She’s got the rubber dishwashing gloves on, and in her hand she’s holding a metal spatula.
Jeff Jones: –Aha.
Seth Kadish: –What I ask clients at that point in the story, Jeff, I asked them, what do you think Jimmy says to mom? And so I’ll just provide the answer here rather than make you guess. He looks at her, and he points to the dog, and he says the dog did it.
Jeff Jones: –(laughs)
Seth Kadish: –Right.
Jeff Jones: –Okay.
Seth Kadish: –And the thing is, it’s a great response because, after all, your four years old, and the worst it’s gonna happen is, oh, you’re gonna get a tongue lashing. But the worst, I mean, sorry, the very worst, is that you’re gonna get hit with that metal spatula.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So, he has protected himself, he saved himself. But here’s the thing, so in that moment he has learned that there are three very specific patterns of thought, emotion and behavior that are helpful to him. He lied, he manipulated, he blamed.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –But, he did it for all the right reasons, which is all of us. But the problem is at age four, well, what works and doesn’t work so well at 14, and 34, and 64, and on and on. So that’s how patterns evolve, they evolve for the best reasons. And when we look at them, I always tell people, we should not judge them. We should just simply accept why they came about, how they served us, and do we still want to hold onto them, or do we want to modify them, or even try to eradicate them. So that’s the essence of the patterns work.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful story. And so it’s very, very difficult to not judge (laughs).
Seth Kadish: Right, right, (laughs).
Jeff Jones: In an ideal world, we are going to know, that pattern of judging yourself is gonna be a downward spiral. Is gonna lead us into feeling worse about yourself, or shame, or whatever, yeah. So what you just kind of pointed out here very eloquently is a process of how patterns naturally happened through the course of us living our lives.
Seth Kadish: Yes, that’s correct. And again, to return to the story, most often you’ll find that they become reined in us at a very early age–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –when sometimes clients would tell me, oh, I really didn’t start that pattern until a year or two ago. And yeah, that could be truth to it. But usually I want to go deeper into it, and see where it had its roots. Because this is, as we know, this is where we form out, release and create our belief systems is age two, three, five, eight, and so forth on the school yard and in the home. That’s where it gets formed,
Jeff Jones: Right, so there’s patterns that we do just in the normal course of trying to get our needs met and then there’s patterns that we do that are a little bit different incrementally as we’re under more, and more stress. That’s how I look at it. How would you say it?
Seth Kadish: Well, that’s pretty well put. I think just to kind of piggyback off what you said, cause you mentioned stress, that’s something that crops up a lot, and it’s very analogous to addiction, which is, like with addiction when we’re under a lot of stress, or we’re traumatized, or life becomes too much, and addiction that has subsided, or a pattern that has effectively gone away. Re-Emerges, so for arguments sake, let’s say that you talk about chain, which I’d like to touch on in a little bit. So we’re doing good, we are self confidence, it’s up, our self esteem has improved, and then we find out that we may be losing our job, or the husband is unhappy with the marriage, and so forth. We become a little bit more stressed out, and all of a sudden the person once again becomes flooded with shame, which has not been a problem that same year–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –As we know, again, same thing with addiction, we’re doing great, and then a stressor hits, and now we’re back to the bottom or
Jeff Jones: –Or for families, I mean what I have seen over and over, and I’m sure you have too, but that is, you know, addiction is slowly, gradually growing in one person in the family, and it’s making it more difficult for other people in the family to connect with them, to relate to them, to kind of, we had, have been a family together in the past. It’s like, all that is starting to change, and it’s my sense is, it’s happening so slowly that it’s really hard to note, but then at some point it is obvious.
Seth Kadish: –Erupts, right? Or it becomes obvious, you know, an angle, or a slant that I have on that would be to point out that everybody in the family is bringing a pattern, or patterns into the family system. So, to be really clear about it, let’s say that the drug user is still with shame.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –And, or she is drinking, or using drugs, maybe shame is what kicked off the use, maybe it’s exacerbating, we’re keeping it in place. And, so that’s their main pattern that they’re wrestling with. And we know that the classic pattern for one or more of the parents will be the codependent pattern, which is the enabling that pasidity, the pleasing, or caretaking of the client. Right, we see that all the time, but there could be other patterns involved as well. Let’s say that the mother decides to deal with the young adults addiction by isolating, and withdrawing, and avoiding
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Very commonly becomes irate, and angry, and frustrated, and displaces Django, or is very aggressive toward the addicted young adults.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Let’s say the younger daughter who feels slighted, and ignored, starts acting out in a very passive aggressive way. So, all these patterns are just flying within the family, and they’re all linked to the young addicts Utes.
Jeff Jones: Right, right, right, right. And, it is, so you know, challenging because some of these patterns that like the idea of parents, or being codependent, or enabling, you know, my sense of that is that’s a label that whole psychology field kind of came up with. And there’s a lot of really wonderful information underneath that.–
Seth Kadish: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –And I know different professionals see it different ways and
Seth Kadish: –Yes (laughs).
Jeff Jones: So, what I’ve started to do, is see families as, you know, they’re in crisis. How do we get them out of crisis–
Seth Kadish: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –like that? I’ve seen where that label is not helpful in early stages. And, I’ve also seen where that label, is incredibly helpful when someone really starts to put together, oh my god, there’s really something to the craziness I’ve been feeling, and what I’ve been doing, and now I have an explanation. So
Seth Kadish: –I was laughing because, yes, we’ve all heard so many different takes on this. And yes, I really get that there’s various ways of viewing this, but just to be very clear about what I was pointing out a moment ago. So, let’s go back to the father who deals with, let’s call him a young adult son who’s given
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So the father, chances are that, the father is not just dealing with his son in that way. He probably in times of crisis, is dealing with his wife, and his boss. And, he learned that as an early kid may be by his own father modeling that kind of frustrated, angry
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –eruptive behavior. So, that’s what I’m getting at.
Jeff Jones: –Absolutely.
Seth Kadish: –I asked him to go to a whole family enabling, or being passed. So, I think that’s a misnomer, I think that’s a mistake when we want to make the whole family system labeled as enabling
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –not the case. Again, I pointed out, you know, maybe a younger sibling, they might be reacting in a totally different way.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Whatsoever, maybe packing, or avoiding.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So, Seth like question that I have early on in helping families understand and see these patterns.–
Seth Kadish: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –Do you have anything that you have done, or created, or say to help families kind of understand that these patterns that happen are, you know, have trickled down from one generation to another, or impersonal, and we personalize them, or
Seth Kadish: –Yeah.
Jeff Jones: –How do you talk about this with family.
Seth Kadish: Right, how do we talk about it? So again, because some have believer in simplicity–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –When I have done family work in the past, particularly a new dual diagnosis in Reno working with, rather families with young adult clients. So, what I really want to know, and I think most therapists want to know this, is, what are you really thinking, and feeling, and kind of reflected back to you in a way that you don’t feel judged. That’s not the only kind of pejorative language, but rather that you can almost scientifically, and objectively look at your own reactions, and then decide is that helpful, or not helpful.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So, let’s say, it is the father who’s always angry, you know, what’s going on, and what do we always find job. I’m sure you’ve found this a million times is that, the father is scared and is worried, he’s frightened, and it’s taken the form of anger,
Jeff Jones: –Right, absolutely.
Seth Kadish: –so, what we want to point out then, that is that being helpful to your son right now? Who is hating you for that, or is terrified with you, rather than some empathy and understanding.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –You’re not condoning your young adults behavior. You simply want to understand it, and figure out the best way to help them.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Is your anger serving the purpose? Yeah.
Jeff Jones: I really love what you just said. There is like, you know, people being able to reflect on what’s going on inside of them, and it’s like what am I really thinking, and feeling here.
Seth Kadish: –Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –What are my thoughts? What are my feelings? And it’s kind of like just a stop and pause. Kind of like some mindfulness.
Seth Kadish: Yes, exactly, exactly what the phrase I used were that, a lot of the clients is go below, go deeper, go below, or ask them what is the meaning of what you just said, or what is the meaning of your belief around attitude? Which in a way it’s a little tricky because it seems like a kind of a clear question, but usually it has maybe, several teachers that I want people to really explore and investigate. I want you to go below, right, so–
Jeff Jones: Yeah, so for people listening to this, can you give an example of, you know, maybe when we ask ourselves that question, what am I really thinking, or feeling?–
Seth Kadish: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –How do we go below?
Seth Kadish: Right, that’s great. And again, in the book, I have specific exercises around that, but I’ll give you the sensitive, and I’ll describe an interchange I had actually yesterday with a client fresh–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –In my mind. Obviously, i’ll, you know, make sure not to reveal the person’s identity, but a young man who is quite anxious and depressive. So, he was talking about avoiding a job interview that’s coming up. He seemed a little bit insecure, and I really don’t know, and I don’t want to do it, and I don’t like the job. And they said, what’s really going on here? They said, well, yeah, I don’t think this job is right for me, blah, blah, blah. I said, no, but what’s below that? And where we got you was a lot of fear, a lot of anxiety instead of stopping there. Well, okay, fear and anxiety is what’s driving you emotionally, and what’s driving the fear and anxiety, and he kind of fun bird and mumburd, and eventually he got to, what does the very basic fear for so many people, is a fear of being seen as incompetent.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –And that links of course to self esteem and shame. So, what was driving it? The fear was, again, a sense of inadequacy.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Once were that, but we work with that. So,
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –If you just keep asking yourself that question, what’s really going on below, below, and always look forward to the emotional underpinnings, that’s where you want to land.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Yeah, and going back just one more than the second. Going back to kind of driving the point about that father who is angered his son, if he’s honest with himself, people see, chances are that this is just nothing but pure, unadulterated fear and worry that’s causing my behaviors.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for that explanation. That’s really, really helpful. And you know, when we can’t go below, my sense is we get stuck in this looping kind of thing, and you know, our nervous system stays activated–
Seth Kadish: Right?
Jeff Jones: –And when it stays activated, and you know this more than I do, when our nervous system stays activated, there’s less blood flow to the part of our brain that can help us make the best decision,
Seth Kadish: Right, we become so reactive and you know, used the word loop, which is synonymous with pattern.–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Seth Kadish: –We just get caught in the pattern, and I also wanted to mention something earlier that I neglected to say, probably Jeff, the number one question I get asked about this work as well. If these patterns are negative, why do I have them? (laughs) Why don’t I get rid of them? And the simple answer, or the most prominent answer, is because they are familiar, and familiarity breeds an illusory sense of safety and security. They don’t really make us safer, more secure, again, it’s a phantom. It’s not a reality, but we have that. It’s very much akin to, why do we dry the same route to work everyday, eat the same,
“Familiarity breeds an illusory sense of safety and security. They don't really make us safer, more secure. Again, it's a phantom.” –Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Why do we go into routine, which can be very boring, but it’s reassuring?
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –And going back to, we shouldn’t judge ourselves for the pattern because, everybody wants to feel safe, secure and reassured.
Jeff Jones: Right, yeah, yeah. Like, just in listening to what you’re saying Seth, the other, you know, possible attribution that I see here is, so often times in our world like what’s modeled to us is staying connected to this looping thing. You know–
Seth Kadish: Right.
Jeff Jones: –And like, who are our positive role models, who are catching these patterns, and kind of going through this internal process of pause, ask a question, like look at it differently, and slow things down, and redirect things. And so, I’m kind of thinking we need more of those (laughs) positive role models. Like, are there any that, like how does that happen? Like
Seth Kadish: –Right.
Jeff Jones: –What do you see there?
Seth Kadish: Well, I’m smiling at that question because, not to sound pump, but I think it’s you, and me, and Denise, and people that we know, that are willing to look at our own patterns, and then teach others how to look at theirs. You know, I remember years ago, I was doing a public speech, it was some kind of service organization. And at that time, I was working with inmates. And so, these are again, maximum security felons, this are the most dangerous people you’d ever meet. So, one of these talks, a woman said to me: “Well, you seem to be pretty empathic and compassionate towards these guys.” And I said: “Yeah, I am not that, I’m, you know, releasing them from prison because they need to be there. But, I have a lot of compassion for many of them.” And she said: “Well, you know, I don’t quite get it because, you know, you seem like you’re pretty good guy.” So, I sort of absorbed that comment, and I thought about it for a moment, and what I said to her was: “The thing is, I’m just liked them.” And she immediately went into, now you’re not on your list, that is, first of all, lady doesn’t know me, you know (laughs).
Jeff Jones: –Right, right.
Seth Kadish: –But I said: “No I said, because I have all the same human beliefs, and impulses, and desires. I’m not different, except that I don’t act on them.”
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –And it’s the same thing with patterns. For those of us who are willing to own our patterns, look at our own negativity, don’t shy away from it, explore it, go into it, do our best to correct it. I think we’ve become good teachers, effective teachers, and we can make a fairly substantial dent in our clients patterns.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –The work you’re doing, which is great, which is now, if you could bring that to families, and families systems, and communities, you know, then my hats off to you because that’s really the way to go. So good luck (laughs).
Jeff Jones: Good luck, thank you.
Seth Kadish: –Yes.
Jeff Jones: –That’s part of my pattern is
Seth Kadish: –Right.
Jeff Jones: –annually trying, finding ways to try to put that out there in a palatable way, you know?
Seth Kadish: –Right.
Jeff Jones: –Understandable. But, like listening to what you were saying, I was struck with, I was talking with someone the other day, and they made the comment of, you know, having a room full of families, and their loved one who is like early in recovery, and asking them: “What are the symptoms?” Like: “What are they feeling inside? What’s their experience?” And so, they had these two columns of, you know, the individual, and the family. And when they looked at those two columns, they were having a lot of the same experiences.
Seth Kadish: Oh, interesting.
Jeff Jones: And so, they’re like, internal experiences were the same, but kind of like their strategies, or their attempts to deal with what was happening. Those symptoms that showed up on those columns–
Seth Kadish: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –Look very, very different, and it’s like, we’re in different roles. Like I’m the dad, you’re the son, you’re the one using, I’m good here. And that’s kind of what I heard in your story about the prison population.
Seth Kadish: –Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –You’re the doctor, and they’re the inmates, and you put them on the same level, and you humanize them. And, that’s what I’m kinda hearing in the kind of behind the comment, the woman that made a comment to you, oh my gosh, you’re not like them or something.
Seth Kadish: –Yeah, it reminds me very much an experience to had a milestones many years ago, where it was a family session, and as I recall was mom, dad, two siblings, and a younger adult person with addiction. And, I’m gonna paraphrase, I think it was the father says something effective. Well, I don’t get it because, and I don’t understand that, if we don’t have addiction, our family, I just don’t understand it. And I remember saying to the father where it’s effective. Well, you know: “What is your addiction?” He said: “Well, no, I don’t have.” And I said: “Well, hold on a second.” And you can see where I’m going with this, i’m sure, (laughs) because, we all have addictions, whether it’s process addiction to drug or alcohol, or what gets overlooked all the time, we’re back to patterns. What’s your thought addiction?, or what’s your emotional addiction, such as you get angry all the time, or you tend to plunge into despair or catastrophic thinking. And
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –then, I heard that, and he said: “Well yeah, I could see your point.” So, that enables the parent to, then empathize with the young addict
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –and realize that, we’re all the same. Going back to this notion that we all have the same impulses, beliefs and desires.
Jeff Jones: Right, right, right.–
Seth Kadish: Yeah (laughs).
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, I love the phrasing of what you just did there. And talking to the dad, kind of saying, and saying, what is your addiction? What is your pattern? What do you do? Kind of, like without thinking as a reactive kind of thing, to really help him understand, you know, that this is like a human process
Seth Kadish: –Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –and part of our evolving as humans, is how do we deal with this, these patterns in a way that isn’t gonna put yourself at risk, or harm, and doesn’t harm others
Seth Kadish: –Ehm, yeah.
Jeff Jones: –And you know, can help our own evolution, or our own personal process or something. So
Seth Kadish: –Yeah, so with that, I would love to give the listeners a very simple exercise that they can do.
Jeff Jones: –Wonderful.
Seth Kadish: –Good. So this is my starting point for a patterns clients. I gave it to a young woman yesterday after my group who wants to know, how should I begin to process, and like everything else that I like to teach it very, very simple, deceptively so. Okay, so what I asked the person to do, is take a piece of paper, draw a line down the middle, and on the left, write a word like negative or weakness, and on the right, positive or strength. So, positive patterns, negative patterns, strengths, weaknesses
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –I asked them to do, is to go ahead and start listing, and I’ll give some examples in the moment. Start listing negative and positive patterns. But here is the catch Jeff, and it’s a very significant one. The list has to be of equal length, right?
Jeff Jones: –(laughs).
Seth Kadish: –You just read my mind, why I say that. And, for those people who are not getting it, it’s because, if I don’t give that little conditioner admonition, what will happen is, for many people they’ll come up with a ton of negatives. I literally had a guy when I first started doing the work, Jeff, who wrote down, and I’m not exaggerating, 43 negative patterns, or negative qualities. Guess how many straight yeah, and guess how many strengths he had, zero.
Jeff Jones: –Zero.
Seth Kadish: –Yet, you’re gonna get one, but zero. And he was being for real. He wasn’t kidding around. He couldn’t think of any. He’s so conditioned
Jeff Jones: –Wow.
Seth Kadish: –to be self deprecating, self-flagellating, we’re not conditioned to think in positive ways about ourselves.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –And I think that self esteem is, hey, you look at what’s working, you celebrate, acknowledge what’s good. And then you look at what’s not working, and you do your best to correct it, or improve upon it.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: So that’s a very, very valuable beginning technique. And it also gets people thinking in terms of negative, well, let’s see where, where am I falling short? Where could I do better?–
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Seth Kadish: –Going back to the family, right? The father and mother, the siblings who want to point the finger, what could I be working on. Because, maybe I am contributing to the overall problems inherent in the family system.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –And one other thing I would add to that, because people do get stumped on occasion with the positive and negative. So, I asked the client, do your best to do this by yourself. And if you really get stumped, then reach out to therapist, coach, family member, friend, sponsor, whoever it might be, and then ask them for an honest appraisal, both positive and negative of how they see you.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, beautiful. That exercise is, so, I love what I’m hearing, and actually I’m thinking about a family that I have been working with for a number of months.–
Seth Kadish: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –You know, kind of the brilliance of that simple exercise that I see. And you named it Seth, and that is both columns need to have the same number of the same
Seth Kadish: –(laughs)
Jeff Jones: –yeah, and because, one thing that really shows, is that people can have a pattern to kind of express anger and blame others
Seth Kadish: –Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –or they can have a pattern where they turn that anger inward, and they’re to blame, and then everybody else isn’t.
Seth Kadish: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Jeff Jones: And that simple little thing of, you know, there’s an equal amount in each column really shines light on that pattern.
Seth Kadish: Ehm, right. It’s so important to make sure that we acknowledge what is valuable about ourselves. Now going back to the subject of addiction, I had mentioned earlier, I’d wanted to share with the listeners what I see as to top patterns, that the person with the addiction suffers from. And the number one will relate to exactly what we’re talking about right now. So, we’re gonna tie this in together.–
“It's so important to make sure that we acknowledge what is valuable about ourselves.” –Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: Great.
Seth Kadish: –Okay. So, you know, Jeff, it didn’t come to me at first actually. I would say, this came to me after many years of working with many people with addiction, and family members as well. So, my top three culprits, so to speak, by far and away, and the number one place, is one that you mentioned before. So, I know that you’re seeing it as well. In fact, it’s a pattern that is an epidemic and catastrophic proportions, and that shame, people don’t always understand what shame is.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So, it’d be clear the classic definition, which again, we know, is that I am something bad, but where I recognize it, and spotted is the language that people use in talking about themselves because they don’t make it. That statement, what they say is, well, I’m not good enough, I’m bad, i’m the problem in the family, I’m the Weirdo the alien, defective, a loser, a failure, and yada, yada, yada. So, as soon as I hear a verbiage like that, it tells me there’s shame going on.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –And one of my statements that I make to clients is, shame kills because it kills in the oddest ways of somebody who’s suicidal, or somebody who’s shooting up a lot of dope, or drinking themselves to death. But, it also shows up in the person who lacks self care
“…shame kills, because it kills in the obvious ways…”–Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –or is diabetic and overeating, or the accidents that somebody drives to a tree, and we say it’s an accident, but you know, often that can be triggered
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –by of unworthiness and undeserving. So, so that’s in first place
Jeff Jones: –Yes.
Seth Kadish: –in second place, is another one that’s quite common that we all know, and whether we call it codependency, which is actually not the word I use because, I look at two very specific patterns, Jeff. One is people pleasing, and the other one is caretaking. So, I will share the following aphorism with clients. It’s one also took many years to develop, and it’s as simple as can be, it boils down to, I hurt me to help you, and that’s it. I hurt me to help you. And that’s my measuring stick in my own life and with clients, and i’m hurting myself financially, physically, emotionally. Am I some way hurting myself, and with all patterns, as with all patterns, i’m doing it compulsively. I’m not stopping to think, do I want to give you that hundred dollars you asked for, or help you move on Saturday morning.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –make the requests. People pleasers, they say yes, and families can be guilty of that. Of course, by caretaking, and people pleasing the addict in the family compulsively without stopping to think, is this helpful or hurtful?
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –And then the third one is, one that’s a little less obvious. If you were in my groups, you would know that I just, I hammer at this because it’s so, so important. And that is suppression of truth, thoughts and feelings with the emphasis on the feeling suppressing emotions. So, we know by definition going back to Freud, and Freudian times, where he described depression is anger turned inward.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So, anger of course, is suppressed by so many people we work with, and within the addicted, or addiction population, oh, it really rears its head frequently from my vantage point, more so with women than men, because, of course in our society, still to this day, I think it’s frowned upon for women to be angry, I rate and all that, whereas for men, it’s, you know,
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –it’s normal, then we’re socialized to believe it’s okay. But, the emotions that tend to get suppressed, and I’ll give you those in the order that I see them, being suppressed are anger followed by sadness, and then the third one surprises people, which is joy, peoples oppressed joy, oh yeah. And not just people with clinical depression, but many people feel they’re not allowed to, not supposed to, they just, they tamp it down.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So, they’re important for all people, and particularly people in addiction to be able to express their emotions, let it out, then do it appropriately.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –And again, watch the people pleasing, and certainly, certainly watched the shame.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, beautiful, wow. What a powerful list, and hopefully powerful takeaways for families. So, what I heard the three patterns that you see as the top, the first is shame, and the second is either people pleasing or caretaking, and the third is suppressed true thoughts and feelings. And then you had three specific feelings that, we’ll see, suppressed anger, sadness, and suppressing joy. And when you said suppressing joy, I was like raising my hand going, oh yeah, I can relate to some of these.
Seth Kadish: Yeah. You know, I tell the story, personal story, but I won’t go into the background because it’s unnecessary, but when I was 12 years old, I made a decision to no longer cry, having to do with wanting to look like a grown up, and a strong guy and all that.–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Seth Kadish: –And so literally, literally did not cry for 20 years until age 32, and then did this kind of work that I help other people do and I was able to release it. So, it became apparent to me at that age, how much that had hurt me, and how important it is to find a way to release any and all the emotions you’re feeling.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Because as we know, we don’t. That’s depression, leads to anxiety, leads to acting out behaviors, needs to drug and alcohol use, and then to kind of clip it over to the family. It’s the same advice to the family, or all the thoughts and emotions that the family members have. Are they coming out appropriately in a counseling session? Are they doing their own journaling? There are many techniques of releasing emotions as we know
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –But, that needs to happen to have a healthy family system. Got to find a way of making sure everything is coming out. I also liken it to the idea of the bomb squad because people say: “Well, if I get angry, I’m gonna blow up the room, or you don’t want to see me get angry, or I won’t be able to turn off the spigot, i’ll be angry forever.” I said: “No.” Again, techniques to release it safely, like you would that package that was ticking, and put it in the back of, you know, the bomb van and blow it up safely.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So, that’s the thing, a very important part of the work. But, typically it needs to be done, or done best with a therapist ,or a coach, or somebody who can guide the process.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, and I’m thinking about like, the very early stage in a family, when maybe the family isn’t really sure if this loved one’s behavior. Like, is this addiction, or is this not addiction? And like that kind of stage, and then suppressing our thoughts and feelings, and it’s like with the stigma, and shame, and the culture, it’s like that’s almost a given.–
Seth Kadish: Ehm.
Jeff Jones: –And you know, it doesn’t like the focus is on, oh my gosh, my loved one here. And they’re doing some chaotic stuff, and it may even be life and death, and actually, it is life and death a lot of times. And so, it’s so hard to pull back, and regulate, and realize, you know, hey, I’m going to be in a lot better situation if I can take care of myself through some of this. If I can be honest with what’s really going on inside of me in this situation, i’m gonna be a lot better at handling this situation.
Seth Kadish: Yes, right, exactly, exactly. If I can work on my own patterns, and work through my stuff, I’ll be that much more equipped to help my younger adult son, or daughter deal with, with their situations. so perfectly right.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –And of course, the benefits of them doing their own work, you know they are
Jeff Jones: –Absolutely. So, someone listening to this, like bare minimum, the idea of getting your own therapist, is a great idea (laughs).
Seth Kadish: Yes, it’s a very good idea, no doubt.–
Jeff Jones: So, in this conversation, is there anything that you wanted to say, that you haven’t said yet?
Seth Kadish: Yeah, I actually was going to tell those stories earlier. I like telling stories. Again, I think it’s in the Brooklyn water.–
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Seth Kadish: It’s a story about going back to milestones. It was a young woman that I worked with a long time ago. I think Denise and I were kind of new to milestones at that point. And so, I as clinical director was around the facility constantly, and this one young woman, she was 19 years old, and you couldn’t help but overhear, Jeff, everyday, her talking to her dad when the day was over, like at 5 or 5:30, cause she’d just be yelling.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –And so, I remember talking to one day about it, and I said: “Well do you want to break that pattern?” Because, I guess the point I’m gonna make here with this story is about intervening patterns. Intervening in patterns, is quite important. And, it can be maybe ought to be simple. So anyway, she said to me: “Sure, I’m open to it.” I said: “So, everyday you talk to your dad, and you guys argue back and forth, don’t you?” And she said: “yeah.” And I said: “Well, I have an idea for you, and let’s see if you like it.” She said: “Sure.” I said: “When you’re talking to your dad today, or tomorrow, stand on one leg.” She said: “What will that do?” And I said to her: “Well, I have a better idea. I want you to talk to him in Chinese.” And she said: “Well, I don’t speak Chinese.” And i said: “That’s even better.” So, she just learned me baffled, and I started laughing. I said: “The point is, to break the pattern, break the dynamic, whether it’s a family, or father and daughter, or within your own self.” And then we got to talk, and I gave her some more pragmatic and realistic advice. I said: “What I suggest you do, is when you talk to your dad, to break the pattern of your defensiveness. When you touch something truthful to you, such as you overspent on the credit card, or you didn’t return, this phone call, admit it, so listen, just say, pop you right.” I said: “By the way, he won’t hear it first, cause he’ll keep on yelling to at you, cause he’s not used to you to tell them the truth.”–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –Break the pattern in the simplest of ways by acknowledging it, and finding some contrary, or opposite action, which is where I wanted to go with all this.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –So, you listening, if you want to know how to build confidence, think of what would be the opposite behavior
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –right? In simple terms, if only I come early, right?
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –If I isolate, then I make a point once a day of communicating with somebody to break the pattern, keep it simple, intervene, and if it’s a little painful, and uncomfortable, hey, that’s cool, I’m alright with that. You might not be, I’m good with it
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –but we understand that to change patterns.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, I love that, worry right there. And I mean, one of the things I’ve observed is, like who in the family speaks first, and whose voice gets heard, and whose voice in the family doesn’t get listened to? You know, and like those kind of patterns. And I like, when people become aware of that. That’s something where it’s like, if I’m always the first one to speak, I can, like chill out, and listen to others, and ask, oh well how do you feel about this? Or how do you like, so there’s, there’s so much potential here and I got to ask, I gotta ask, Seth, with the story. So, what happened when she did that with her father?
Seth Kadish: It actually did improve their relationship. She started becoming less defensive. It was a challenge at first, and so things did get better, and as I mentioned earlier, in times of stress, we revert. It wasn’t perfect for her, which by the way, that’s important for people trying to change, or break a pattern, and you don’t beat yourself up for reverting to it.–
“You don't beat yourself up for reverting to it.” –Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –But, generally speaking, things definitely improved as she started becoming less sensitive, which then enabled her father to be better communicated. Well, that’s a very important point too. And, I can go on for hours about this, Jeff.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –But, I will say that when we change our pattern, often not the entire family starts shifting without even realizing that they’re doing it. And I–
“When we change our pattern, often that entire family starts shifting without even realizing that they're doing it.” –Dr. Seth Kadish Share on XJeff Jones: –Right.
Seth Kadish: –I’m sure you’ve seen that in your family worked, right? One person making a change leads to others changing.
Jeff Jones: Right. And the other beauty about what I heard, in what you were talking about is this client was a milestone’s client, so they were in a container of support like, that enabled their health, and growth, and recovery. And so, they could try new things, and always kind of fall back on like, hey, this is what happened. Help me out with this next step kind of thing.
Seth Kadish: That’s the beauty of being in a well run, and effective treatment center.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –You can process where it doesn’t go well, where it does go well, you get the encouragement, and the support, and even amping up, taking the person to the next step. So yes, it’s very fortunate for her that when she was at milestones, good for her.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Seth Kadish: –And it’s always nice to have great outcomes. It’s a pleasure to watch.
Jeff Jones: Absolutely, absolutely. So, can you say how you would like people to get a hold of you?
Seth Kadish: –Yes, thanks Jeff.
Jeff Jones: –And learn more about you, your book, the work that you’re doing. That would be great.
Seth Kadish: Okay, thank you. So let me, uh, give an email address. That’s the way I prefer to be contacted.–
Jeff Jones: Okay.
Seth Kadish: –Say a little bit about, some of the things I’m working on, and I’ll then reiterate the email address. So, my email address is DrSethCK@aol.com and that would be D-R-S-E-T-H-C-K as in Calvin Klein, @aol.com. Some of the things I’m working on, would be up and running within a few weeks, or next month or two, are a video, or youtube series on Pop Your Patterns, is to be some short, instructive, hopefully a little bit humorous, interesting videos as well as a blog site. I have a bunch of blogs on the back burner, and I wanted to get them out there. Most of them related to what we’ve been talking about, is different patterns, and how to work with them, where they come from. So, if people email me at DrSethCK@aol.com, i’ll be happy to keep them in the loop, as far as videos, blogs, and or if they have questions, feel free, won’t cost you a cent to ask me questions, be happy to help anybody.
Jeff Jones: All right, great. Well thank you very much for this conversation, I appreciate it.
Seth Kadish: Thank you Jeff. I really appreciate you taking the time to interview me, and ask me questions about patterns. Thank you.
Jeff Jones: Sir. You’re welcome.