53: Dr. Arthur Trotzky, An Expert on Extending Treatment Services Digitally, Shares Why “Families are Not Patients” and Some Thoughts on the Future of Addiction Treatment
“You need to be open to the possibility that this is going to be the future.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky
Modernization in the addiction treatment- Why not! As we head on to an advancing trend in almost anything that involves our everyday life, we might as well consider a more pragmatic approach to addiction treatment and recovery. Respecting cost-efficiency and quality of service, researches show that this mode of treatment is not beneath face-to-face therapy while providing equal effectiveness from the comfort and privacy of your own home. Learn more about how this is implemented and how you can join this global community.
In that order, today’s episode also addresses codependency in a comforting context without the stigma and blaming with regards to enabling and labelling. ‘Families are not patients.’ Therefore, how should this issue be dealt with in light of the family’s role in the recovery process? And how can we be sure that the medication being prescribed really works and not lead to another addiction? To answer to all these intriguing questions, let’s travel virtually to the other side of the sea, Israel. Let Dr. Arthur Trotzky walk you through some new information on codependency and virtual recovery.
Highlights:
03:06 The Future of Addiction Treatment
12:52 Families Are Not Patients
22:01 Virtual Therapy
30:24 Advantages of the Online Platform
35:50 Keeping the Family on the Loop
40:38 After Treatment Monitoring
45:20 Question The Gold Standard
53:15 Virtual Reality Therapy Office
Resources:
Books
Prodependency: Moving Beyond Codependency by Robert Weiss
Let’s have a glimpse to the future of recovery with @TFRSolution and Dr. Arthur Trotzky in this engaging and enlightening discussion of codependency and addiction treatment. #digitalservices #future #onlinecommunities #monitoringapps #codependence Share on X
About Dr. Arthur Trotzky:
A man having experienced the world in its different genres, Dr. Arthur Trotzky went from improving his resumé to improving the addiction treatment. Originally from New York, his accent being a giveaway, Dr. Trotzky went out to experience different fields and gathered a lot of wisdom and skills that helped him get to where he is now . Of course life wasn’t all cupcakes and rainbows. He went into a struggle with addiction for some time. However, his highpoint came unexpectedly from one Skype call. Hence, the birth of his passion for virtual treatment. His work continues to operate at present and will continue in the future as the results of this endeavor proves to be bearing much fruit.
Connect With Arthur:
Website:http://www.onlinegrouptherapy.com/
Email: dr@onlinegrouptherapy.com
Telephone: 404-316-5056
Quotes:
18:26 “I think you have to treat problem by itself and each problem, treat the person in the family that has the substance addiction, … And then the family members may need their own sense of direction and treatment in dealing with the person was really sick. They’re not sick.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky
50:15 “…family members navigating addiction in their family is no small deal… There can be things that occur that aren’t necessarily in their best interest. And they may not know until it’s too late.” –Jeff Jones
50:56 “A lot of these medications help in the beginning of recovery. But our do not believe a person can live a healthy life and stay on (medication)… for 30 years.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky
52:32 “I don’t want to disparage the whole treatment. I think there’s a lot of good, but you have to think of how to get a person independent of these medications at some point.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky
53:15 “You need to be open to the possibility that this is going to be the future.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky
56:25 “There’s not one method for everybody.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
Jeff Jones: So, welcome everyone. This is Jeff with the podcast Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery. And today I am here with a very special guest actually, this guest is, I’m having this conversation with Doctor Arthur Trotsky who is by the Dead Sea around Israel from what I understand. So, and, I am just meeting him and he comes with a slew of experience and background and some of it he has shared with me, and specifically how I found him is he is an expert with putting information online. Specifically, he’s done this with the treatment centers, and so he brings a wealth of information there, and then specifically a message for families is: “Families are not patients”. So Arthur, welcome.
Arthur Trotsky: Oh, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So, if we could start, if you could just talk a little bit about who you are. So, people who are listening to this have a better idea and get to know you a little.
Arthur Trotsky: Who I am, is something I’ve been trying to figure out for the last 50 years. (laughs)
Jeff Jones: Welcome. (laughs)
Arthur Trotsky: Well, as you probably hear, I’m from New York originally. We have my New York accent gives you right away. I spent a career in education in Connecticut, and then in Maine, spent a year in Colorado, did my graduate work in Oregon, and got into recovery in 1987 here in Israel. I came to Israel to work at the University of Haifa, and at a clinic, because I ran into affirmative action in 1976. I was unable to get a job at a university because I wasn’t a minority or a woman–
Jeff Jones: –aha
Arthur Trotsky: So, I came here just to, to get a few resources. My resume university would look good.
Jeff Jones: –Sure.
Arthur Trotsky: –But my life took off first of all, the drinking and drug and took off, and then when I got into recovery, I being one of the only professionals at the time in the country in recovery, I was able to open up a whole new area for this country in treatment. So, we started some 12 step treatment programs, when I started is now 70 bed facility. Huge, and I worked in food addictions and I did some work in trauma, with the Israeli army treating combat trauma, and then with the security services and treating victims of terrorism.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: –And in 2005, I went to a tech position at Ridgeview institute in Atlanta where I worked in the professionals program and doing family therapy there. And I got into online just by accident. One of my sons was in Europe, called me on Skype and the other was traveling around South American. He called — he got into the same conversation and I forgot about the technology at the same moment, I was most interested in how they’re doing and what they’re doing, you know?
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: –Sun’s in Columbia. I said, don’t use any drugs in Columbia and has the money situation where you go in and we talked for about half an hour and then we said, bye. Love you guys, bye. And we closed the meeting out. I sat back in my apartment and George and I said, I don’t believe that I’m talking to one kid in Europe, one kid in South America as if they’re right in the room with me. I said, this is going to be the future of treatment.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah
Arthur Trotsky: –online therapy. So, I started to explore it, and I started doing some individual work, and then I even formed a group online where I had eight people, with eight people camera’s interacting.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Arthur Trotsky: –It took off from there. And then since most people started much later. I had gone through all the trials and tribulations of trying to start it up, all kinds of technical problems in camerawork, in audio problems, and how do you solve things. And fortunately, I was using a program that had 24/7 online phone tech support.
Jeff Jones: –Ah,
Arthur Trotsky: –it was wonderful cause it’s 3:00 in the morning here and I’m working with someone in Georgia, 8:00 in the evening there, and he has no camera.
Jeff Jones: Uh Huh.
Arthur Trotsky: I said: “Just call tech”, he call a tech and he’d come back in. It was an amazing system. But, after a while I got pretty proficient myself. In fact, one incident I had some of the chords on the microphones have a mute button.
Jeff Jones: –Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I wasn’t thinking of it. I obviously moved forward and pressed it on the desk and moved back and all of a sudden the group couldn’t hear me, theyr’e yelling at me: “We can’t hear. We can’t hear you.” and I said — I go to my control panel and I go to the sound and everything’s okay.
Jeff Jones: –Right, right.
Arthur Trotsky: —I don’t know what the problem is. I said, one minute I chatted, I wrote it up: “I’m going to call the tech up”. The first thing he asked me: “Do you have a mute button?” I said: “Oh” I pushed it, then I was back in,
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Arthur Trotsky: –so you know, little things you learn over the years doing it made me as sort of an expert, and I think the passion for doing things online is part of what makes me successful in the field of online treatment. I will make a prediction. We were talking about this earlier that — I think in the future all therapists going to be online. In fact, I have to go further down the line. I think, it’s going to be with virtual reality headsets.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Put these goggles on and you’ll be in the same room with your therapists, or the same room with your client, or even have a family in the same room, that’s far off, but that’s going to come.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: –So, I’m very excited about the medium, and I don’t necessarily do family. I do some couples work, but I think this medium will offer so many advantages to people doing interventions and family therapy.
Jeff Jones: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean I’ve, I have been in the online world for like, three years, something like that and I see so much potential and actually I came to it kicking and screaming, because I was thinking I could never do what I do face to face. And I was, you know, working with families and have a six month contract and stay engaged with them. And what I found out is I could do more online, than I could face to face and then follow up with just telephone. So–
Arthur Trotsky: –go ahead and, and, and the research indicates that it’s as effective as, as effective as, as face to face. In fact, that the VA is using it. They would do their costs and their hospitalizations for 25% there’s a lot of information out on how effective it is.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I find very little difference in doing online work in the face to face situations, where they can’t see the feet.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: You can’t see my dog when he’s sitting on my lap, but it’s a disadvantage. Say if you, the person says: “I’m feeling very calm today. Stop it. Stop it feeling very calm today” and his foot is going like this. You don’t pick up on that.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah. Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Other than that, you can’t touch somebody. Can’t give him a hug. Although, I did have an incident where someone had a very serious incident happened and I said: “You know, if you were in my office now I give you hug.” I said: “I’ll give you a virtual hug.” It went like this and he kind of laughed. But it’s not the same — that those are the only two problems I think you have transitioning to online.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And I think the other thing too that I’ve seen is that it’s hard for people to even consider or think about the possibility of using online in the context of, you know, whether it’s therapy that you’re doing or coaching that I’m doing. You know, it’s just a different thinking process and it’s coming, but it’s–
Arthur Trotsky: –Yup. Well, you know, in family therapy for example — I’m just thinking one of the advantages of doing online work is the person doesn’t have to leave his or her comfort zone.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Arthur Trotsky: –They can do it in an office? They can do it in their home. They can do it — I’ve had people sitting in your car doing it, believe it or not.
Jeff Jones: –Right
Arthur Trotsky: –On the phone, which I don’t particularly like, but they don’t have to travel. They don’t pack, They don’t have to get dressed. Yeah. You can be wearing Pajama. I had a woman in my group, a doctor who got up in the middle of the group to get out and let her cat out, she was wearing pajama pants. (laughs)
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: –I said: “Are you in pajamas?” She said: “Yes, I let the cat out.” So, that’s what comfortable, and you don’t have to travel. No parking. And it’s also anonymous, because you don’t have to go to the therapist’s office. Now, I remember long time ago when I was in therapy, psychotherapy, it was a stigma back in those days and I, I had to go into a waiting room and I was always looking around and when I see what’s going into the building, and then in the waiting room, sitting opposite someone who’s going to see the other day, Doctor — I said: “Oh my God, what does he think? He thinks I’m a schizophrenia, I go crazy. I’m a serial killer.” You know.
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Arthur Trotsky: –This avoids all the idea. It gives you anonymity. No one sees, no one knows about it. It’s very private and no weather problems. You know? One time in Atlanta–
Jeff Jones: –oh
Arthur Trotsky: –Oh, Atlanta had an ice storm and everything closed down.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: –I had my group, my group was working. AA groups, AA groups, family sessions individually or closed down, the hospital closed down. I kept going.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: –I’ve only had two power failures. I shouldn’t say that cause we’ll probably have a power failure. You know, I have a two power failures in 10 years.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah. Wow. Wow, wow. Well, so you know you were talking about specifically to families with an addicted loved one. You had mentioned this thing, you know, I want to be clear, families are not patients. Can you say more about that?
Arthur Trotsky: Yup. I just want to say one thing before I say something about that, that is that with family therapy, the whole family doesn’t have to travel to one spot.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Let’s say a brother may be at his office, the husband may be at home. Yeah, and the wife may be at a friend’s house. She goes to another room and everyone’s in the session at the same time. So, it really, there’s a lot of people at a time.
Jeff Jones: To follow up on what you just said there, I’ve worked with families where one person is in one country, someone else’s in another country, they’re in different states around and then some people in person.
Arthur Trotsky: Yup.
Jeff Jones: So there’s, there’s just a lot of flexibility here. And–
Arthur Trotsky: We’ll look, you’re in Colorado. I’m at the Dead Sea.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: There’s a seven hour time difference with 5,000 miles. And we’re sitting here as if we’re in the same room.
Jeff Jones: Right? 5,000 miles. Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I think it’s about 5,000 miles. Yeah.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh. Wow. Yeah. Well, so this transition into families are not patients.
Arthur Trotsky: Yeah. Yeah. Over the years, whenever I had a person in recovery for one of the addictions, I was taught and all the books that came out said: “You have to treat the loved one as significant as the other, the brother, the family, whoever’s around the person because they’re codependent.”
Jeff Jones: Hmm.
Arthur Trotsky: Part of the problem they’re enabling and they are, it always bothered me for years because I would empathize with the person. I’m trying to think: “If that was my son.”
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: “I wouldn’t let him get arrested. I’ll try and talk the policemen out of it.”
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: But that’s enabling your codependent, and all these kind of concepts. And just last August, I was at a conference in Cape Cod Symposium on addictive disorders and a really sharp guy named Dr. Robert Weiss was there.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: He was presenting a new book that he put out called Prodependence, Prodependence, NOT Codependence. I went to hear him and I met him. We had a nice discussion, but it was so right on, as far as I can see.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: You know, we can’t begin to treat the family and the loved ones as significant others as, as patients. I mean, they may have a lot of issues. I’m sure they do.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: There may be anxiety and panic depression and lack of sleep and attempts to help and all kinds of things and they may need themselves some type of therapy, but they’re not the patient, the identified patient and the family. The family is not sick.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, one of the things that I’ve seen is that families get approached from professionals with the thinking that you’re talking about and like letting them know that they’re codependent, that they’re enabling and it’s like, it’s just not helpful because they’re being blamed. And you know, just like the body’s natural reaction is to contract, and to close off and the families are in crisis. They’re not like sick, they’re in crisis.
Arthur Trotsky: Right.
Jeff Jones: And so step number one, how do we get this family out of crisis?
Arthur Trotsky: Yeah. It would be like, you know, if, if addiction is a disease, which I believe it is a primary disease.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It’s a brain disease. I believe in any case, if a child in a family, a young child, eight year old child had leukemia, okay.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: The family is not responsible for the leukemia. They’re not, they didn’t cause it. They can’t cure it. They can’t control it. But they’re going to be, as you say, IN CRISIS, they’re going to worry about the doctors that the right answer. I don’t wanna lose my daughter, you know, my brother. It’ll be just almost traumatic for them to have to go through all these procedures.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: In fact, I know someone who actually did have a, a child with cancer and it was pretty traumatic for her, but she’s not sick. Yeah. So we speak normally to an unexpected stress situation, which is causing a trauma for her. Right. So she might need a therapy to help her with her issues, but certainly not to see her as being enabling or all kinds of things–
Jeff Jones: –The cause of the addiction.
Arthur Trotsky: –Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Jones: You know, because that’s — we both know that’s not the case and unfortunately some of our language has gone that direction and you know, over years of, you know, various blaming messages being out and it trickling down those messages trickling down. It’s easy for families to kind of feel responsible.
Arthur Trotsky: Not only for families, but we therapists also, I mean, we’ve been so conditioned all the books out there, co-dependence, co-dependence, anonymous, and–
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: You know, loving too much. That’s a great name. LOVING TOO MUCH.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I wish my family would love too much, (laughs) you know, but we’ve all been programmed so hard to, to see this as they’re patient. They’re part of the problem and I don’t see it all. Another thing I will say, this is a bit controversial, but I don’t believe TRAUMA CAUSES ADDICTION.
Jeff Jones: aha..
Arthur Trotsky: I think there’s separate diagnosis, PTSD and addiction. Now there’s an interaction, but I’ll tell you from my experiences with, with Israelis who have suffered from what they call combat trauma.
Jeff Jones: Right?
Arthur Trotsky: Of all the ones I treated, I only had one got into Opioid medications, because of the availability, because of the culture. There are many factors. I remember it–
Jeff Jones: –absolutely
Arthur Trotsky: I remember it’s saying: “How many people in the audience are women or teachers?” And it turns out if I were to take all the women teachers and find out math teachers, women, math teachers, how many of you have been sexually, traumatized or molested, you’d find quite a number of them. So, that would be like saying: “Well, being traumatized makes you a math teacher.”
Jeff Jones: (laughs) Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: See, there’s an interaction definitely between trauma and you have to identify it and there may be a little bit more trauma. Certainly in our culture, the American culture, there’s a lot of availability of alcohol and drugs and food and, and sex addiction, all the different addictions. So, it’s going to be higher. But if you went to say to a Muslim country, you wouldn’t find that the traumatic experience they had caused them to become alcoholics because alcohol is not available.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: So, I think you have to treat problem by itself and each problem, treat the person in the family that has the substance addiction or the abuse disorder, use disorder, and then the family members may need their own sense of direction and treatment in dealing with the person who was really sick, but they’re not sick.
“I think you have to treat problem by itself and each problem, treat the person in the family that has the substance addiction, … And then the family members may need their own sense of direction and treatment in dealing with the person was… Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah. Well, just in listening to you, like one of the points that’s so clear that I’m getting that’s important is to recognize when there’s a specific problem, to recognize the context that surrounds that problem and what’s happening in that context and what’s adding stress, because if it’s adding stress or adding trauma, then it’s like how is that stress or trauma being dealt with kind of thing. But the context, the environment can be so different. And I love the example that you gave with like in Israel, you know there is no alcohol, so, there’s not going to be–
Arthur Trotsky: –No, no, no, no in Israel there’s plenty of alcohol.
Jeff Jones: –There’s plenty,
Arthur Trotsky: –I’m talking about the Muslim countries, they don’t allow alcohol.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: The religion doesn’t allow drinking. So–
Jeff Jones: –yeah, I just constantly am trying to do things to address the family in a way that is inviting as opposed to labeling, and I love the book that you mentioned by Rob Weiss, Prodependence, because you know, really in that book, and it’s very small, and but, it’s for therapists and he’s trying to educate professionals about this language. And when I was having a conversation with him, one of the things that he said is: “There’s over 300 books about codependency.” And it’s like, what does that mean? There’s like so many different definitions of that and it’s hard for addiction professionals to get on the same page about that.
Arthur Trotsky: Yup.
Jeff Jones: It’s shaming. And then, so, it really makes sense to me why family members can kind of contract and stay in isolation and hope this problem’s going away and like stay in their own quote, unquote denial. But, we can call it denial. But we can also kind of acknowledge this shaming language, and this confusion, and that family members are just trying to do their best to help their loved one
Arthur Trotsky: Ah, on the head though. When you said so many books, I remember there was just so many books or you go family workshop. In fact, family work at a particular treatment center. They come with all the books on codependence. There’s so many, you know, it’s hard to change. You know, at some point the world was flat and this got guy named Galileo came around and said: “Nope, not flat anymore.” And they excommunicated him. So it’s gonna take, it’s gonna take a lot of effort to try and get the message out there. We’ve got to examine what we’re talking about when we’re talking about codependence and what families are really, really going through. What they’re experiencing and that they do need help. Not Easy.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: As do any family involved with a sick person. There are cancer groups, children, families of cancer patients on and on, you know?
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah. So in your work, have you found inviting ways to incorporate the family, or is the majority of your work with the individual in recovery?
Arthur Trotsky: Well, that’s a good question, because most of my work is online and I, I do couple step. I’ve never done really, I don’t one family session online, so, I’m not really doing family therapy online.
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Arthur Trotsky: I think is a wonderful opportunity, and I think what you’re doing is great, and I think there’s a real need out there. I think the more you get familiar with online, it will be easier, because you can pull the whole family and we just put another screen up here and let’s say, Jeff, you’re the father. I’ll be the mother and there’s the kid and we all talk and the therapist be the fourth box up there.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It would work wonderfully. I think it’s a fantastic thing. I will say this though, when we’re talking about interventions, we mentioned that intervention can’t be done online. Number one, cause the patient or the identified person can just disconnect.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: You know, I’m Outta here. Boom. I’ve had that in a group. I had that in the group.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: When the group side to challenge this guy, he was a gambler and he was, he was clean from gambling. He was abstinence from gambling, but two of the guys in the group decided he needed to go inpatient. They started telling me, you got to go into inpatient, you may go through withdrawal. And the guy just said: “This is not for me.” And he disappeared. I couldn’t even stop him.
Jeff Jones: Yeah that’s right.
Arthur Trotsky: I thing the intervention needs to be done in person. But let’s say you were doing an intervention on me. Okay. In this particular scenario, and in the room was my wife, and my kids.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: But one of my kids was in South America. You can pull him in also from South America in the intervention, your kids in Europe, you can pull him in. Once a very busy doctor, he could go into the his own room and come in for the intervention.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: So, that does offer family intervention.
Jeff Jones: Sure thing online.
Arthur Trotsky: But as I say, I don’t believe the patient and the interventions have to be in the same room with maybe some of the people involved.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There’s so many different possibilities. It’s almost like the sky’s the limit and some of the things that I’ve seen and it’s just kind of like mind boggling to me and initially when I got in this, I had no idea of what was possible and I was like, there’s no way I can do what I did before. And yeah, so there is a whole learning curve here–
Arthur Trotsky: Yup, and it’s hard to say what the future is going to bring the technology. I really believe someday with virtual reality, 10, 20 years from now has to be involves this technology in family therapy. You’ll be able to have a whole family in a virtual room with you, seeing them from the feet to the head, just as he’s in regular room. You know, I had done some virtual reality things and in museums it’s unbelievable, but you feel like you’re in the ancient temple walking around. All of a sudden it’s this gigantic God walks by you and then a priest walks by you. You know–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It’s very expensive. I mean, I could do it now for you. We could do a virtual meeting, but it would cost about a $100.00. Just the set up here would be like $30,000.
Jeff Jones: Oh for the goggles. Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Definitely. Yeah. Oh my god. We were trying to figure out how do you call them? Yeah. They’ll have a name from some day too.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I have seen some videos on that. I know that is the future. That’s down the road quite a bit, but yeah, the whole online world and the potential to expand recovery services or the individual for the family and to have more ongoing treatment.
Arthur Trotsky: While you’re talking, I’m thinking about it. You’re not wearing your phones with a mic now.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: When I started out 10 years ago, everybody had to earphones with a mic.
Jeff Jones: Yeah–
Arthur Trotsky: Because otherwise my voice would come out of your speakers and come back into mine–
Jeff Jones: Oh yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It was echoes and feedback and you see people talking, I would say: “You see, if I go, then I should go — Hello? Hello?” No, no, let let me do this right. Hello, how are you? — How are you? Yeah. You’d hear these echoes in the (laughs) I still use these because I think it’s best for lip synchronization, and I can here, and no one can hear.
Jeff Jones: Right. Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: They were in the surrounding area, and it’s just 20 bucks for a pair of these. And it solves the problem. But, I can see a time when everyone will not need your phones and–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: You know, see, I don’t know why it happened. Like if it’s you, it’s perfect right now. You don’t have your phones on. But, I had a client about two months ago. He didn’t have earphones. I did. And I kept hearing my echo. He didn’t hear it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: So I suffered through most of the session, and then when the first session ended? I said: “Listen, you know, I’m going to tell you I’m getting a lot of it echos. Can you get earphones.” He said: “Sure, I’ll get earphones.” The second time was perfect. But I don’t know, I don’t know why, the technology is always getting more advanced. This program is terrific. This is a terrific program. Very clear.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It’s amazing. The technology and it’s gotta be the future.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: You’re probably one of the pioneers in family therapy online.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I don’t know many people that doing what you’re doing, and I think that if you stay with it, it’s gonna develop. It has to–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Why would a family want to travel? Three people, four people, all leave work, school, take time out and in an hour to get to you when they can just go into another room, press a button, link in and there in.
Jeff Jones: Yeah,
Arthur Trotsky: It doesn’t make sense.
Jeff Jones: I know. I know. It’s just a different thinking process.
Arthur Trotsky: But you know we are what they call digital immigrants.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: The kids of today are native at immigrants — native — digital natives.
Jeff Jones: Yes.
Arthur Trotsky: The kids love it. They get into it. They have no problem. They fix their own technical problems. They don’t need tech support. It’s amazing what these kids do.
Jeff Jones: Oh my — yeah. When I have a problem, I go, I go across the street to a teenager: “Help me here.” (laughs)
Arthur Trotsky: Yeah. They come in with earbuds with microphone earbuds on. It’s amazing, but you’re going to find 10 years from now everyone now. Let’s see, eight year old, nine year old, 10 year olds, they’re going to be getting married, having families, they’re going to be very comfortable working online. They’re not going to travel to a therapist, not gonna want to go for family therapy. By the way, family therapy, I think is difficult. I don’t know, I’m just talking off the top of my head. I’m thinking, oh no, got to get data with mom and dad, and my brother. Oh No. You know? Instead of just going to see my therapist, you know? So, I think that just the fact that I can just click in, and click out — we waited. Maybe try it out.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, some distance. Some ability to set my own boundaries, have a little more control perhaps.
Arthur Trotsky: uhhmmmnn, uhmmnnn
Jeff Jones: So, there’s a lot of positives and my sense is what I’ve seen when families are in the throes of addiction and their nervous system is activated, and the majority of their blood flow is not going to the cortex where they can make best decisions there. You know, the bloods go into the limbic and they are just trying to survive, and they’re not really thinking about how best we can solve this problem, or how these new online tools can be helpful for us.
Arthur Trotsky: I think what would be wonderful, we did family therapy over the phone in Georgia. We were doing it over the phone. That’s pretty common. I would have preferred to have family therapy online, see the parents, see the loved ones, see the partner online, talk to him or her or them and even maybe invite the identified patient in to the family therapy session.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there’s so much that can be done, like from like this platform that I was showing you, the community chat. It’s like having the ability to mute various people, and having the ability to message one person and not the whole group. There’s just a lot of functionality. One of the things that I really was the most impressed with early on when I got into this was, you know, being able to, instead of just ask a family one question and go around and get the perspective of, you know, three or four people in the room, I could write down one question and give that to them for homework, and have them fill it out and then put it on the same–
Arthur Trotsky: –for everyone to see–
Jeff Jones: –for everyone to see. And when everyone sees it, like they’re coming up with their own answer, but they get to see everybody else’s answer. And like from the standpoint of starting to break family rules, you know, break secrets say things that aren’t quote, unquote like the norm here. My sense is it’s a little bit easier for people to take risks in that environment, to do some things that are a little bit out of the norm of the family rules. So, and that’s just one example. And the more I do this, the more practice I have and the more I have access to some pretty awesome tools, the more potential that exists. And one of the biggest challenges is communicating that potential to people who have a highly activated nervous system.
Arthur Trotsky: Just thinking what you were talking about, you know, in a group session or a family session, let’s say that the daughter was getting angry and she was going to interrupt the phone. Like I said I just put my hand up and just say: “Just wait, wait, wait a second. What is it?” In a family session online. You can shoot a message. You know: “Sarah, be cool for a moment. Let Daddy finish.”
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: “I’ll get, I get to the point you want to bring up.” You can communicate behind the backs of people with communications that you would normally have to use your hands for or I do anyway I use my hands a lot in therapy.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah. So, it was awesome to find you online and it was from an email of a course that you are giving for therapists about online therapy–
Arthur Trotsky: –and digital apps, applications for follow up and maintaining recovery, which is interesting from the family perspective
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Arthur Trotsky: Because, people that there’s a whole bunch of things family have to go through before the patient is discharged. Right. But when they’re discharged and if supposedly successful, they still have quite a lot to do to deal with, continue to do with the disease. And most treatment centers in the United States, throughout the world will say: “Okay, best of luck. (Claps) Come to our alumni meeting or alumni party at the swimming pool in January.”
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: “March, whatever.” Now Sierra Tucson, well, I think they’re one of the first in the country that come up with a phone app that goes on the iPhone, or the smartphone, android, whether they call them today and everyday the person is checked with, or they have to do a checking. You have to ask: “Did you go to a meeting?” , “How were you feeling?” , “Did you see a therapist?”
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: The person agrees before discharge to be in this, if he agrees or she, into this program, they agree to a certain amount of people in their support group. So, if I’m a patient, I just left, my sister, my mother, my father, my wife, we’re all in that group.
Jeff Jones: Right
Arthur Trotsky: We’re all at the same time get the notification. “How are you feeling today, Arthur?” I said: “I’m fine.” “Any triggers today? Any cravings?” “Yes.” Now, the family’s there. They’re aware. “What did you do? You tell them?” I spoke with my sponsor, I went to my therapist.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I let it pass, whatever. And then the counselor, or the moderator, or whatever it is, mentor, he can or she can then say: “Take a drug test.” And the patient’s agreed to take a drug test with one of the support people to make sure that he doesn’t fake it. Okay. You’re in some place else and then that’s accountability. That’s something, you know, the family can be in the picture without letting the patient know how crazy they are at that moment. I can be very worried about my son here. He’s okay today. He went to a meeting. He spoke to his counselor. He doesn’t have cravings. That is a little bit more comfortable.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: You see, so these apps are coming in too now.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Another program I worked with called Hope Homes in — they’re based in Atlanta, they have a sober living in Nashville, and in Charlotte, North Carolina has three states. They can bring their people in after care. Cause if we’re talking about disease, they don’t call it aftercare, which essentially call it continuing care–
Jeff Jones: Continuing care–
Arthur Trotsky: You know, some of semantics but, which I have a lot of trouble always semantics today, you know, but in any case, I set it up where they would have an online group meeting, so that, people from the different states would get together and — a lot of people in the meeting too, A LOT OF PEOPLE and we, we go around and talk about how to doing all that. So, after I set it up, they took it over now they have someone on their staff, they’re going to believe what they came up with an app that each person gets, everyday, they get smileys, you know, from the, from the counselor, they get–
Jeff Jones: Right–
Arthur Trotsky: Emojis, they call them those right? And the family can use emojis and they can all communicate when the patient out and then they can get a urine test done if the counselor feels the patient needs it. And he agrees to go with one of those people to do a urine test. So this is, this keeps accountability and keeps the family in the loop. They got the family interfering–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: Reassures them, and you know, they need reassurance.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: They were fine, you know?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Every parents, any, anyone who loves too much, right. Has to be concerned that their loved one is leaving treatment and they’re protected. You’re going to a graduation party, it’s going to be alcohol. Going to a beach party is going to be dope. You know, whatever cocaine they, they’re worried it’s going to be a rave party the kids was invited to.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: So, this way instead of them interfering, which doesn’t going to help anyways, it’s going to cause the most stress all around these apps or being online will allow the family members, the significant others to be involved.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: You should.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: And to be alert to what’s happening. You know.
Jeff Jones: So, there was a company that I had a fair amount of communication with a number of months ago and it was very similar to what you’re talking about. And one of the, the ways that they put this together was that to offer a financial incentive for the person in recovery, if they were to do the things that were on their plan, and they were to do that over X period of time, that they would actually get like a hundred dollar reimbursement or something like that. And so, I mean, there’s been a lot of thought put into these things, and I really look forward to day when these apps are incorporated with family engagement, and you know, family doing some of their own work, and change process. And when I say that there’s not just ONE thing that every member can do, like you’re codependent and you need to change it. That’s not what I’m talking about.
Arthur Trotsky: Right, right. Oh, that’s, that’s important too.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It’s not going to be easy to change that outlook people have. It’s so ingrained. We had lectures on codependency at the treatment center in Atlanta. We had lectures on it.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: Families getting lectured on codependency.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: So instead of saying, to them: “You know, you folks, you got a rough time, you’re having a rough time. It’s okay. You don’t have to be embarrassed about it. You know, you shame you didn’t sleep for two nights. That’s fine. We understand that. You know? Right. Well, you see you didn’t cause you to court, clearly you can’t do it and blah blah blah…” all that stuff.
Jeff Jones: One of the things that I’ve seen with families is when their loved one is in the treatment center that they’ll sit there and listen to this stuff that’s coming at them, but as soon as their loved one gets out of the treatment center, they’re out of there. They don’t want to follow up with, like I’m making a general statement, which isn’t true 100% all the time, but I’ve just seen so many people that don’t want to follow up with suggested resources, suggested resources like Alanon. No, and I mean, so oftentimes they’re afraid to go face to face. They might see someone they do business with cross the circle, or something like that. But yeah, so I mean I really look forward to the time when changes can be made in how addiction is approached and how family can be a bigger part of the solution. And I think these electronic means of communication and the APPS, like you started talking about are wonderful opportunities for that. Right?
Arthur Trotsky: Well, you know, there’s also possibility of actually monitoring that the person after treatment with a smart phone, with all kinds of apps in there, you can find out. So kind of even a lie detective type of test. But I don’t want to get into that because, it’s such a fantasy world right now, but it’s very possible that they could do that. You know? And you would, you would know how the person, they can predict in treatment, By what’s going on with the patient, the high chance of relapse or leaving treatment. They can see it coming.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: So, after the person were to leave and be clean and sober. They’ll be able to monitor.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: But what we’re getting into — into things that are going to come someday, but who knows what you know, who knows —
Jeff Jones: To be able to use those apps too. Key warning signs too. Like to — for other people to know: “Oh my gosh, this is a warning sign.” And bring that to the attention of the individual who’s in the early stages of trying to navigate that–
Arthur Trotsky: Yeah, that would be best done in a family therapy process rather than say–
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh–
Arthur Trotsky: In a car driving across town. You know.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Much more valuable to have the professional to navigate the interaction between the family, and the patient, and then also to see if it’s, if it’s really there, or not or it’s fear.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Another thing I might mention a little, I have a lot of trouble with the direction that the treatment has gone in. The reason I say that is, I was involved with one of the first doctors that developed a rapid detox under anesthesia here in Israel, and they were using a substance called Naltrexone, which is, which is a opioid blocker. The person on Naltrexone cannot get high.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: And I started to see what was happening in the United States in terms of pharmaceutical companies. They now market millions, well, first of all, they market all as opiates. They, they were able to get the Oxycontin marketed as a less addictive when it was the most addictive type of drug. So, it will release less addictive type to be responsive to the opioid epidemic almost in America. So, but they made millions and they paid fines when they found that doctors had lied fake research, and so they paid $666,000,000.00 fine, but they made $1,000,000,000. The doctors paid $10,000,000 fine, but they made millions themselves. Now what’s happening today on many chemical substances coming out, that I don’t know really what the future of these medications are going to cause. But I know with these medications they recommend having your liver checked every six months. Liver signs, but they’re the big business.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: An injection, injection cost $1,000 a month, $1,000 a month for one injection.
Jeff Jones: –for one
Arthur Trotsky: We have a hundred addicts, that’s $100,000 — that’s $1,000,000,000 and they’re pushing these now, and I must say, I used to lecture on this 20 years ago. I said: “The future of recovery and the lessons of the past. Future of recovery told me that they’re going into chemistry and they’re going into chemistry cause it’s profitable.”
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: And I see that happening today. I see that happening big time today and I, I have a lot of concerns about it because a lot of these medications are being used off label for different things. In any case, my point for the families is that when a patient comes out, the families need to know what medications are about. If the patient is compliant, and to do a little research on the medications.
Jeff Jones: Yes. Yes.
Arthur Trotsky: I think that — cause if, if my son, God forbid we’re coming out of treatment and he was put on Suboxone or Subutex, I’d want to know what it is? How much is he taking? How long does he have to take it? What are the side effects and how can he get off it?
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: My experience these medications has been that people use them between getting high, a lot of people, many of them and a lot of them increase the dose itself. Dosage instead of using. So, it’s like Marco the psychiatrist in Florida once said: “You ever notice in the morning at Starbucks there’s a line for decaf?” He said: “Where in the world can you see people standing in line, if there isn’t a drug in there?”
Jeff Jones: Yeah, right.
Arthur Trotsky: I just read last week that decaf has a certain percentage of caffeine in it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Much less than regular coffee, but it has caffeine in it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So from your perspective, like the direction of treatment, are there things that you see that would be helpful to incorporate?
Arthur Trotsky: Which level of treatment we’re talking about now?
Jeff Jones: Well, I’m just responding to what you were saying about—
Arthur Trotsky: Okay. Let me elaborate because I think–
Jeff Jones: Sure–
Arthur Trotsky: The organization is — medical organization behind this push is now calling the gold standard. Now they have the officials, they’re the professionals. So, when a doctor said: “This is the gold standard in treatment.” Well, you don’t have questions. I’m saying we need to question it. They now have, you know, they used to be a psychiatrist. Most psychiatrists like 50 years ago were doing psychotherapy. So, they sit with a patient for an hour, okay. And they would get like $150 in those days. And that — in that hour they talked to him about Freud, you know, Adlerian, one of the psychoanalytic theories.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: Or the psychiatrist worked in a mental institution, mental institution and he wasn’t really considered a doctor. He was a doctor, but he was a psychiatrist. All of a sudden when the medications came in, the doctor could see four or five patients in an hour.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: Okay. And he now can write prescriptions for everyone. “Your child has ADHD. Here is a prescription.” , “You have depression, here’s this prescription.” , “Anxiety, here’s a prescription.” , “You can’t sleep, here’s a prescription.” So then they started to make more money, the psychiatrist, they became legitimate doctors prescribing.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: And the American Society of addiction medicine is now offering a course, cause they give out a medication called Buprenorphine, which it affects the opiate system and then keeps people from using opiates. So, if you do a course now, of course a two day course, you as a psychiatrist can now or you as a medical doctor, not a psychiatrist, can now see patients on your office and prescribed Buprenorphine.
Jeff Jones: After a two day course,
Arthur Trotsky: A two day course, and this is the gold standard, so it’s getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. I have a friend who’s a psychiatrist up in Maine and I said to him: “I work with addiction.” He says: “Well, I do too.” I said: “What do you do” He said: “I give prescriptions for Buprenorphine. I’m allowed to treat up to 100 patients a year. They take the course, I can take 300 patients.” So, he makes a lot of money. The doctor.
Jeff Jones: Right?
Arthur Trotsky: Instead of sitting with an addict or a person in recovery and talked about all problems.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: What are you feeling? Having cravings? Well let’s increase the dose. Let’s do this, let’s tweak this, let’s tweak that and can make more money per hour than pharmaceuticals make a lot of money. And I questioned a lot of the research. I question all of the research.
Jeff Jones: So, the message that I hear for families, like a takeaway here is to ask questions about the gold standard and–
Arthur Trotsky: Do some research.
Jeff Jones: Like–
Arthur Trotsky: Ask the people that have taken the medications. Got to see what really is happening on the street.
Jeff Jones: Right? Yeah. So, it’s like there’s a lot of money involved in helping people and specifically when someone is a psychiatrist or prescribing the medication.
Arthur Trotsky: Today a regular medical doctor prescribing.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: A guy who’s a family medicine specialists can sit in his office and an addict comes in. He doesn’t know what to do with the addict.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: So, I’ll go to the gold standard here. Here’s a receipt here. Go get — take these pills. Then come back and another meeting and let’s see how you’re doing.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, so there’s, I mean quite a big challenge here for families to navigate and I mean with the platform that I showed you, one of the things that I’m trying to inspire here is for people to have conversations with one another, family members to have conversations with other family members, who may be like a step or two ahead of them and you know, they ask: “Hey, I’m at this stage.” And someone else can reply: “Hey, I was at that place a couple of years ago and I tried this and that.” —
Arthur Trotsky: –That’s the beauty of your, your community website–
Jeff Jones: Right?
Arthur Trotsky: You can get these people in touch with people who have gone through and have taken the medications–
Jeff Jones: Yeah, normal family members, not—
Arthur Trotsky: Right.
Jeff Jones: Not someone who stands to profit.
Arthur Trotsky: Right. You know, at Cape Cod, at the conference’s symposium, the drug companies will come with their booths. They’re all the treatment centers and the drug companies there.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: Of course they have more money. They give you nice pens, and challenges, and pill. I got a pillbox, when I was there. I did my cholesterol medication Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. But a group of women from Cape Cod, parents whose sons and daughters had taken those medications, a lot of them went back to using a lot of overdose and died. Came to protest.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: So, but, they’re of minority.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: And who’s going to, who would you rather listen to? Someone would just lost your son, or the doctor who has the gold standard behind them.
Jeff Jones: I know. So, this is for family members navigating addiction in their family is no small deal, you know, and their choice a lot of times is, you know. Well, do we go with the medical model? Do we just kind of like, and it’s like, it isn’t like there’s anything wrong with that in theory, but it’s like there can be things that occur that aren’t necessarily in their best interest, and they may not know until it’s too late.
“…family members navigating addiction in their family is no small deal… There can be things that occur that aren't necessarily in their best interest. And they may not know until it's too late.” –Jeff Jones Share on XArthur Trotsky: I don’t want to disparage the whole medical professional, but I think a lot of these medications are very helpful in detox. Patient doesn’t have to suffer.
Jeff Jones: Absolutely.
Arthur Trotsky: A lot of these medications help in the beginning of recovery, but I do not believe a person can live a healthy life, and stay on Naltrexone or Subutex for 30 years.
“A lot of these medications help in the beginning of recovery. But our do not believe a person can live a healthy life and stay on (medication)… for 30 years.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Patients I’ve worked with Subutex have been regular — when they get into crisis, instead of using the double, they triple the amount of Subutex they take, there’s some effect. Cause I sent a kid to treatment in Colorado up in Carbondale.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, I know where you’re talking about.
Arthur Trotsky: Great Place. Great Place. Jaywalk great place. I know the people. I’ve been there. And I sent this young fellow and he detoxed from Subutex and no, it was Suboxone he was taking, which is Naltrexone and Buprenorphine together, and he was in a treatment center. He walked out, when I opened a post office box and through the Internet ordered medication.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I don’t know how he got it, and they found out that you had to suffer the consequences, but why would a person do that? You know, it didn’t have something in there. I like the decaffeinated coffee. You stand online for coffee, it has caffeine and you don’t go to the post office, open a post office box and by the drug you just detoxed off, if it doesn’t do something for you.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Cause he could’ve gone out and scored heroin. But that’s illegal. He’s got a prescription, and it’s a big problem. The long term results. We don’t know what they are, but I, I don’t want to disparage the whole treatment.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Arthur Trotsky: I think there’s a lot of good in it, but you have to think of how to get a person independent of these medication at some point. Coping mechanisms.
“I don't want to disparage the whole treatment. I think there's a lot of good, but you have to think of how to get a person independent of these medications at some point.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky Share on XJeff Jones: Sure.
Arthur Trotsky: And the family has to be involved in that and you know better than I do. In how not to interfere? How to encourage? How to be available, and how not to bring their own traumas and anxieties into the picture and make things worse for the patient.
Jeff Jones: Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, is there any messages that you would like to leave families with or anything that you haven’t said that you wanted to say?
Arthur Trotsky: Well, that’s a good question. I don’t know. I like to be a wisdom giver. Once, I can tell you when you — in the desert you drink a lot of fluids?
Jeff Jones: (laughs) Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It’s bitter lemon not out to sell so, [inaudible]
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: Well let me just, let me say, I don’t really have any words to wisdom, other than to say that, you know, anyone viewing this you need to be open, cause possibility that this is going to be the future. Well, in fact I’m convinced this is going to be the future. You know, if you told me 20 years ago, 30 years ago, when I was first working here in Israel, I used to call my mother in New York. I had to wait 20 minutes to get an overseas line.
“You need to be open to the possibility that this is going to be the future.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: It was $14 for three minute call. Okay. Now I’ve got Magic Jack.
Jeff Jones: Oh yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: I’m in the states and I can talk as long as I want t anybody. Who would think 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10, 15 years ago–
Jeff Jones: Right. That would be possible.
Arthur Trotsky: That we could talk like this, on the Internet, free, or we can talk from my car to your car. I talked to a friend of mine who he’s driving down the long an expressway and I’m driving down from Jerusalem to the Dead Sea and we’re talking like we’re buddy’s right in town. So, I would say: “Be open to the fact that this medium is going to be more and more familiar to you, and totally to the viewers.”
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Arthur Trotsky: For your own going into — if you want to drive an hour and find a parking spot, pay for gas, and pay right away. Online therapy allows you to give a reduced fee, because I don’t have any office expenses, you know other than–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: Right here.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Arthur Trotsky: And I can have my little doggie right on my lap. See, no one knows it either. I mean, there are a lot of advantages, but if you want to drive and park and go in and then drive back and leave work, a lot of professionals have trouble leaving work to go to therapy. You know, when I was in college, when I was in therapy, every Wednesday I’d go for an hour drive. I take trains from the Bronx to Manhattan back to the Bronx. So, I took half a day off. “Where you going?.” I wouldn’t say I was going to a psychiatrist, I was saying: “Oh, I’ve had some dental work done.” See so, if you want a stigma, you want — this is going to be the future. There’s no doubt about it. Be Open to it. Look at the advantage of it. Try it out. And for you being one of the pioneers in family therapy online, I’d love to be around in 10 years to see how you’re doing, because I see you’re going to be surfing away, surfing away. (laughs)
Jeff Jones: (laughs) Well, thank you so much. And for people who want to learn more about you, or connect with you, is there information that you can give out about that?
Arthur Trotsky: Well, you go to the police department. No. (laughs)
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Arthur Trotsky: Go to OnlineGroupTherapy.com. One word OnlineGroupTherapy.com. Couple of videos on there. Maybe I’ll put this video on there. I’d love to put this on there. And a lot of publications. My resume, you can have an idea what I’ve been doing. I must emphasize it. Although addiction has been my passion. And for the last almost 30 years, I’ve also worked 27 years at the child and family clinics. So, I do a lot of child therapy and one-to-one therapy and all types of situations. Also, you want to — so one other thing, I don’t think, as we said originally, while we were talking, there’s not one method for everybody.
“There’s not one method for everybody.” –Dr. Arthur Trotzky Share on XJeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: I think that some people will succeed with medically managed treatment or therapy. I do think the 12 step program has a lot to offer. They have this tremendous success record.
Jeff Jones: Right?
Arthur Trotsky: I have found that it works for not only addictions, but for trauma, a panic attacks, and I also treat food in eating as addictions, which is–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Arthur Trotsky: Another controversial kind of thing. I’m always involved with controversy, but it seems that when I get into the controversy, time proves me right. I hope time is gonna – I don’t know. I won’t be around, but time’s going to prove me right somebody, about the virtual reality therapy office.
Jeff Jones: Very cool.
Arthur Trotsky: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: Well, thank you very much.
Arthur Trotsky: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. I enjoyed meeting you very much and wish you all the best, you know. All the best to all of you out there. OnlineGroupTherapy.com if really wants to consult with me about anything.
Jeff Jones: Thank you.