37: Do’s and Don’ts for Families Post Discharge with Debbie Briem
“And what they really need is a lot of hand-holding and a lot of encouragement to say: ‘Well, let’s start out!’ ” –Debbie Briem
So you got your loved one to treatment and it was successful. What now? Our guest, Debbie Briem will walk you through the halls of post discharge and help you to get pass through your dilemmas. Debbie is a licensed Marriage and Family therapist and is currently with Milestones Ranch Malibu as a Clinical Director. Her 20 years of experience says a lot about how she can help families explore out some of the precursors before treatment.
After the discharge, the family is pushed to a tight corner and they go into a cycle of worrying. They become too conscious of their actions to avoid disrupting the new pattern of recovery, which in turn, makes the patient uneasy and hurt. This causes an awkward atmosphere within the family circle which is definitely not healthy for everybody. So for starters, find out what miracle question can you ask to change the way you do things. Also, make a list of the do’s and don’ts of post discharge and learn how families can write their own discharge plan. It is good to note that a planned action is better than an unplanned regression.
Highlights:
02:38 Lovin’ the California Sun
06:25 The Miracle Question
08:46 The Precursors of Treatment
17:16 Integrating The Do’s and Don’ts in the Process
20:58 The Cycle of Worrying
This week’s episode was sponsored by
http://www.milestonesranch.com
FREE CONSULTATION CALL
866.874.9774
You gotta do what you gotta do but knowing the #do’s&don’ts will certainly add another hue! Engage in this conversation with our host @TFRSolution and @debbiebriemmft and learn how to deal with post discharge dilemmas. Share on X
Connect With Debbie
Website: https://www.debbiebriemtherapy.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debbiebriem
Twitter: https://twitter.com/debbiebriemmft
Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/debbiebriem/
Telephone: (310) 919-3791
Quotes:
07:53 “Just from what I have seen is it’s so hard for families to expand their perspective to see what’s going on in the family as opposed to just a narrow focus.” –Jeff Jones
09:19 “And really just having groundwork ideas in terms of how do they communicate with each other… that’s really important.” –Debbie Briem
10:15 “And so there’s the communication piece and really informing the family about, what does addiction really mean. It’s a brain disease. It’s not about love.It’s really all about your loved one having a clear cut, addiction.” –Debbie Briem
11:23 “Education, I think, is a part of it. The other part is it’s like practicing new behaviors. And once they come home, practice isn’t like going to the gym once a day or something like that. Practice is 24/7. Whatever is happening in the family, practices is extremely important.” –Jeff Jones
14:57 “And what they really need is a lot of hand holding and a lot of encouragement to say: ‘Well let’s start out.’ ” –Debbie Briem
25:09 “And the thing that I would say to families right now is please don’t give up. You just don’t know when that process is going to take hold.” –Debbie Briem
26:54 “Even at the onset of intervention, do the homework. Find out what treatment center is really going to offer good family counselling and good guidance and what is their availability.” –Debbie Briem
27:34 “Treatment centers don’t really get paid for the family part of it. They get paid for the individual part of it.” –Jeff Jones
30:08 “Just using that model, it really does bring families back together again in a really productive way.” –Debbie Briem
30:17 “My sense is really it doesn’t take all that much because families have their own wisdom. And once space is made for that… things evolve in ways that I never imagined.” –Jeff Jones
30:48 “It does evolve in a way where there is no information that’s left out and there’s no family member then slept out in. So anybody that wants to participate in the ongoing dialogue is welcomed and that makes treatment and family work effective as well.” –Debbie Briem
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
Milestone Ad:
I’m honored to have Milestones Ranch Malibu sponsor this episode of this podcast. Milestones Ranch is a small 12 bed premier dual diagnosis residential facility that believes that addiction problems in a family do not happen in a vacuum. Everyone has taken on impact and everyone deserves healing from the ramifications of addiction. I’ve experienced milestones myself. I’ve been there, feet on the ground firsthand. And over time of working with this team, I’ve seen the benefit of a group of dedicated professionals supporting families long term positive outcomes, what they call the milestones method. I have the utmost respect for their team and their collaborative model of health. So, check out their website at www.milestonesranch.com.
JEFF: So welcome, today my guest is Debbie Breim from none other than Milestones Ranch in Malibu. And I have known Debbie for, I don’t know, a number of years. And I first met her when I had a client at Milestones and she would call me I think like every Tuesday morning at 7:30 or something like that, very, you know, consistently. And I was very impressed because so oftentimes in my role I’m the one who needs to be reaching out, but anyhow, I am very pleased to have Debbie Briem on here. Welcome Debbie.
DEBBIE: Thank you. Thank you for the invitation.
JEFF: Sure. You’re welcome. So, what I’d like to do is start with, just if you could introduce yourself and the audience here is, you know, it’s probably mainly family members.
DEBBIE: Okay. Okay. Well, my name is Debbie. I’m a licensed marriage family therapist. I have been at Milestones Ranch for about nine years and my role has been primary therapists, clinical director, at this time more therapists. And my role with the families has been very active.
JEFF: I bet.
DEBBIE: Yeah.
JEFF: I bet. Great, great. So is there anything that you want to say about yourself other than your professional role?
DEBBIE: Well, let’s see. I like sunshine as you can see from behind me. [laughing]
JEFF: [laughing] And live in California.
DEBBIE: Live in – live in California. And you would probably see my beautiful white cat at some point walk across –
JEFF: Okay.
DEBBIE: – you know, the back of me.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: You know, I love my family and enjoy writing and reading and that’s, that’s me.
JEFF: Alright. Great. Great. Well, I have been very, very much looking forward to this conversation and, you know, the topic that you chose to talk about was the Do’s and Don’ts for family members in at post discharge and in the role that you’re in, I would think that you see quite a bit, have quite a few experiences and have quite a bit of clarity on some of that.
DEBBIE: Most definitely. The reason I chose Do’s and Don’ts to speak about with you today is because I see a lot of families, well-intended families and patients when they leave discharge, when they leave treatment, you know, there’s a lot of anxiety, there’s a lot of excitement, there’s a lot of celebration, but there’s a lot of anxiety. You know, what if, what if my loved one looks like they’re drinking or using again? What if my loved one looks like they looked before they came into treatment and sometimes way out of even discharge. You know, I’ll get the calls, you know, so and so looks like they looked before they went into treatment when really all it is is maybe just a similar affect. It’s just a similar situation who, you know, the patient is triggered and, you know, the family member is triggered at the same time. And so, you know, I really like to try to coach families how to manage their loved ones discharge. I like to try to coach the families and the patient as well. And how are you going to manage this? What will you do when you leave treatment? Just so that there’s some way to manage it effectively for everybody to have a really good positive experience.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, one of the things that I’m getting here, it’s kind of a both end situation for the family to, like their caretakers and they’re on the front lines of loved ones transition. But it’s also about them managing their own anxiety, regulating their own nervous system, being aware of kind of when they get triggered and being able to catch that before the snowball gets too far down the hill.
DEBBIE: Most definitely.
JEFF: And they get activated. And so, I’m just kinda thinking like from that standpoint, how do you talk with families about just kind of like that both end then bringing some attention to what’s going on for them and how critical that piece is as well.
DEBBIE: Well, long before the discharge takes place, there’s a series of family work that families, you know, engage in and the best family work is always beginning with, you know, the miracle question, you know, what would you do, you know, if you could have anything? What would you do if you could, you know, achieve anything with your family member, with your loved ones. So, that’s always the beginning place. So, long before you know the conversation, you know, that’s had it discharged, the Do’s and Don’ts. Hopefully there’s been a series of good family sessions where, you know, the family and their patients, their loved one can explore out some of the precursors before treatment, some of the big challenges that took place. So, at least when we’re doing the Do’s and Don’ts, they’re just simply reminders. But hopefully there’s a series of sessions that take place where families can really explore out, you know, the systems piece, how they communicate with one another, maybe exploring, you know, old resentments, old regrets with obviously a healthy dose of acknowledgements.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: And then looking forward and kind of also educating the family on how the family system changes post discharge and knowing that sometimes unconsciously they may engage in, you know, disrupting the new pattern of recovery because they’re triggered the patient as well.
JEFF: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, just from what I have seen is it’s so hard for families to expand their perspective, to see kind of like what all’s going on in the family as opposed to just an arrow focus on: “Oh my gosh! You know, this happened or that happened and I’m so concerned.” And so that’s, it seems like there’s a number of things that reinforce family members kind of with this narrow focus. And yeah, so is there any like nuggets or ways that you address that?
DEBBIE: Weel, first things first, you know, we like to introduce at Milestones, you know, the notion of fair fighting because we know that any conversation that the family has, you know, it might start out well, but then they might become triggered. And so, let’s kind of engage in a way to have a fair discussion. And so, we discussed a host of, you know, bullets with regard to how do you talk to your loved one, you know.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: What do you talk about? How do you talk to them using I statements, not bringing in old things from the past without, you know, a rationale or a reason.
JEFF: Right.
DEBBIE: And really just kind of having, you know, some cases, really groundwork ideas in terms of how do they communicate with each other. So that’s really important. That’s a great way to begin the dialogue. And then the next thing, I like to talk to the families away from their loved one and give them a lot of coaching. You know, I love to see families engage in, you know, doing their own work. And doing their own work means usually going to their own therapy, taking family education classes, doing something so that they can really understand the dynamics of addiction. Because so many times as you know Jeff, family members see, you know, their loved one’s drinking as a, you know, as a director to, you know, something that’s gone on in the family. They see it as, you know, you don’t love me. They see, you know, the fact that you’re drinking or using drugs must be, must say something about our relationship because if you loved me you wouldn’t be doing these things.
JEFF: Ah ha. Yeah.
DEBBIE: And so, you know, there’s the communication piece and really, you know, informing the family about, you know, what is addiction really mean? You know, it’s a brain disease.
JEFF: Right.
DEBBIE: You know, it’s not about love. It’s really all about, you know, your loved one having a clear cut, you know, addiction.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. Wow. So, before we jump into the Do’s and Don’ts of post discharge, anything else you want to say kind of preliminary to that?
DEBBIE: Hmm. Again, I think for the family, there needs to be a lot of handholding. You know, a lot of reassurance that their loved one is getting all that they need in the treatment center that they’re being treated at. And I know that, especially at Milestones, we really make family work and family education, family coaching a priority because we know that if that doesn’t happen, then when their loved one, you know, goes to the next stage in their recovery, post discharge, whatever it is, that things fall apart quickly without that education.
JEFF: Things fall apart quickly without that education.
DEBBIE: Yup. Yup.
JEFF: Yea. Yeah – yeah. Well, the education I think is a part of it, the other part is it’s like practicing new behaviors and once they come home it’s like that, you know, practice isn’t like going to the gym once a day or something like that, practice is 24/7.
DEBBIE: Absolutely.
JEFF: Whatever is happening in the family.
DEBBIE: Absolutely. You know, practices is extremely important. And that’s one of the reasons that we really pressed upon families to do their own work. Whether they, you know, go engage in their own therapy, whether it maybe they go to one of the, there’s several programs across the country that do family intensive, those are important to engage in Al-Anon, you know, those are places that they can really practice with others before they even, you know –
JEFF: Right. Yeah.
DEBBIE: – return. Yup.
JEFF: That is optimal for sure.
DEBBIE: It is optimal. Most definitely.
JEFF: Yeah. So, how do we get into this Do’s and Don’ts of discharge and post discharge?
DEBBIE: So interestingly enough, I feel like the Do’s and the Don’ts come up rather organically. And they usually come up with in the last, you know, three to four sessions just before the individual is discharging from treatment. And one of the things that’ll happen is the individual say: “You know, I’m really proud of these accomplishments that I’ve made with my family and treatment.” And then as they’re reflecting, they’ll say: “But you know what? I really feel like I need to have a conversation with my family about what we could talk about, you know, what’s important. I don’t want my family member to, you know, not drink around me. I don’t want my family member to censor themselves. I really want my family member to feel natural, but at the same token, I don’t want my family member to nag me.”
You know, they’ll talk about maybe other treatment episodes if they’ve been in treatment prior and they’ll talk about how, you know, the last time I was in treatment, you know, my mother, you know, said that she thought that I was drinking and it made me relapse. So, just having so many of these kinds of conversations with the patients and then hearing on the other side of the concerns and the anxiety that the family has, you know, has really made me, you know, think, you know, solidly and earnestly about, you know, what a family’s need. They need kind of, you know, the Do’s and the Don’ts. What do you do kind of, you know, like in the same way that we would give a discharge plan to a patient, we want to give the whole family a discharge plan.
JEFF: Yeah. Give the whole family a discharge plans. And so that discharge plan is some of these do’s and don’ts.
DEBBIE: Yes, most definitely. Most definitely.
JEFF: Yeah, and so, what’s your experience of like, how was that received?
DEBBIE: So, most times the family receives it pretty positively. Most families really want to help their loved one. They really are excited about their loved one leaving treatment even if there may be ambivalence, even if they may be anxious, they’re really excited for the next step. However, there’s still sometimes seems to be the, but they did this, but they did that, you know. And what they really need again is a lot of hand holding and a lot of encouragement to say, well, let’s kind of start out. Let’s kind of leave treatment with a family contract and begin to kind of identify the do’s and the don’ts. So for the patient, and they eagerly engage in the family contract and the family eagerly engages in the contract.
So usually what I’ll do at discharge is I’ll ask the family and the patient to come up with a list of boundaries that are important for each. And so the patient will say: “You know, I agree to remain clean and sober.” The family might say: “All right, you know, we want you to really respect the sets of boundaries. We want you to respect time boundaries, money boundaries. We want you to respect how we live as a family.” And so they both independently established their boundaries. And then usually in the last couple sessions we bring, you know, these family contracts together and we integrate them so that they are clearly understood by both the patient and the family member. And you know, it really sets forth a good context for going forward.
JEFF: Yeah. And is there follow up? Any follow up? I don’t know, like I could see where that’s important, but I don’t know if that is like a part of what happens there.
DEBBIE: Yes. Oh yes, most definitely. So post discharge, usually about three to four sessions out, you know, and as a family, as an individual has transitioned away from Milestones –
JEFF: Right.
DEBBIE: – usually there are, you know, touch base conversations with the family member and the patient if that’s possible. And so what we’d like to do is just, you know, how are things going? You know, are there any challenges? You know, thus far what are the strengths? And you know, usually what I hear when we have those conversations are: “Well, you know, I’m really proud of, you know, my wife. She went to, you know, five meetings, you know, immediately.” And the patient will say: “You know, I’m really proud of my family. They’ve been extremely supportive. They’ve really been accommodating.” You know, and they specifically address the things that they talked about while they were in treatment.
JEFF: Yeah. So, Do’s and Don’ts, where are we at in that process?
DEBBIE: Do’s and Don’ts. So in terms of Do’s and Don’ts, that usually is something that I ask the patient to think about. You know, what are the things that are important to you that you want to have your family acknowledge when you leave treatment? And again, the Do’s and the Don’ts that I hear are: “I really want my loved one to be in their own therapy because then they can better understand me and we don’t have to have conversations about the things that makes them upset.” So, that’s number one. And they really want to be acknowledged. That’s another do. Please acknowledge me. Please give me credit for the things that I’m trying to do right. You know, it’s discouraging when I hear that I’m not doing things right. I know that I had the history. I know that, you know, I’ve broken trust and I know it’s going to take a long time. I really want to hear what I’m doing well.
And then the last piece is that they really want to see their loved ones engage in their own self care. They want to see them taking good care of themselves and not worrying any longer. They want to see them, you know, and they want to rebuild the relationship and that’s important to them. And so, even prior to discharge, they may come up with some ideas about how they might rebuild trust. You know, maybe that means they’ll go to a family intensive together, maybe post discharge. They’ll go to meetings together. You know, they really try to come up with ways to really strengthen the bonds for the relationship.
On the other hand, the Don’ts. So I often hear that the patients often say an outline, the biggest don’t is please don’t hover over me. Please don’t nag. Please don’t shame me. Those are the things that they really, really ask for the family not to do. And you know, and having empathy for the family, the family will acknowledge this, but they will, but then there’s the but, and as hard as it is, this is where we ask the family to do their own work. If you engage in your own work, when you’re challenged, you’re triggered by your loved one post discharge, these conversations will become easier.
JEFF: Yeah. Wow. Well I mean, just from my experience, it’s not the norm at discharge for, you know, the family to have anything in the discharge summary and I really like it that you have thought about it. You have some clarity about what some of those Do’s and Don’ts are and you kind of create a space for them to think about it. And like if some things are not being talked about, you can get your flashlight out and shine light right there.
DEBBIE: Exactly. If there’s something that wasn’t spoken about then it’s important that we do address it. And oftentimes that does, you know, sometimes that flashlight does come out post discharge where maybe, you know, two, three months, you know, down the road, oh we didn’t account for this piece. What do we do about this? And so family regroups and they come up with some solutions for something that was difficult. One of the biggest issues that come up in terms of how families manage discharge issues are around money and time. What are you doing when you’re not in the sober living? What are you doing if you’re not in a meeting? And so, you know, so it’s important for, you know, the family to have a frank conversation about accountability.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean on one hand I get that family members just want some reassurance and on another, I mean one of the things that I’ve seen is that, not all family members by any means, but some they get so, for so many years they’ve just worried, worried, worried. And it’s almost like their nervous system is activated to the point where that’s been habituated and anything, well if they see something they can interpret it right away with, you know, the worst case scenario kind of thinking.
DEBBIE: Yes. Most definitely. That triggers their loved one and that’s where the cycle. And so even to that, long before the family leaves, long before the patient leaves treatment and we really want to educate that family and their loved one on that whole cycle that, you know, what’s the triggering event? What happens after that? You know, and then kind of tracking how that cycle is so pervasive that they don’t need to see it happening.
JEFF: Right.
DEBBIE: And how does the system respond? And you even mapping it out, how do you want your sister to look? You know, how do, you know, to the patient, where do you see yourself in this next system? You know, and to the family member, where do you see yourself in the next system? And the question, and the answer that we always get is, I want to be individuated. I want to be part of, but I want to be individuated, and the family wants that just as much as their loved one.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so oftentimes what I’ve seen is it’s the person who is new to recovery and when they’ve learned quite a bit of things and they go home and they’re really inspired to practice those skills that they’ve learned, a lot of times they end up leading their family into a change process. And it’s always, I mean it makes sense to me. And I’ve also been curious as to, you know, can families, can there be like parallel processing there and parallel progress and growth. And I know that there can be, but it doesn’t always happen.
DEBBIE: No, it doesn’t always happen. And the best case scenario again is, you know, the family member engaging in their work and the individual –
JEFF: Right.
DEBBIE: – you know, in a very, very parallel process. Sometimes that doesn’t always happen, but that’s something that we really rallied for and we really pushed for an advocate.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah, really. Well, I really appreciate this topic, you know, and your diving deep into there. So, you know, while we’re in there, anything else that you see or that you want to touch on or share?
DEBBIE: Hmm, that’s a good question, Jeff. There are so many pieces to, you know, the family and, you know, just the whole trajectory of treatment. And I think that again, the more, you know, kind of aligning with the do’s and don’ts, the quicker the family can join with treatment and their loved ones treatment team, the –
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: – better treatment is going to go. I just really want to impress that, that it’s really important for families to align with the treatment team and with their loved one that that’s the most effective treatment –
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: – that I’ve observed at Milestones.
JEFF: And do you have any pointers for that end, because I know that is important and I have seen my share of the opposite where, you know, the family gets to a place where they’re not trusting what the treatment teams says.
DEBBIE: Right – right. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that that’s a dilemma. And the thing that I would say to families right now is please don’t give up.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: You just don’t know when, you know, that process is going to take hold. It may not be this particular treatment term, but it might be. And –
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: – I do know, I mean I’ve worked with the spectrum of the individual who comes into treatment for the first time and the family has really, you know, excited and engaged and motivated. And then there’s the patient who’s been in multiple treatment centers and, you know, the family’s quite exhausted and they don’t know who to trust. And I just really urge families to, as hard as it might be to trust the treatment team.
JEFF: Yeah. I mean there’s the building trust with the family and the individual newly in recovery, but then there’s, you know, the family building trust with the treatment team and –
DEBBIE: Yes.
JEFF: – a lot of times when they choose a treatment center they don’t really think about that part.
DEBBIE: Absolutely. I think that’s the most important piece to the building of trust with the treatment team is to ask a lot of questions. The treatment center that the family chooses is really important. If the treatment center isn’t accessible, I would say that’s probably not a good sign. You want a treatment center that, you know, is going to answer your questions and take the time to educate and to help and guide.
JEFF: Right.
DEBBIE: And that’s what’s really important. And I have heard, you know, from family members that other treatment centers haven’t been so family centric where they haven’t received the kind of support that they need.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: You know, so even, you know, at the onset of intervention, do the homework. Find out –
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: – what treatment center is really going to offer good family counseling and, you know, good guidance and what is their availability. You know, you want that.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: You want that for your loved one.
JEFF: Yeah. That is such a challenging piece. Just, I mean systemically and economically, you know, if treatment centers are pinched with there, like family work, what I’ve seen is, and so this is my interpretation. I don’t know if this is true, but, you know, treatment centers don’t really get paid for the family part of it. They get paid for the individual part of it. And so treatment centers that have an extensive family program and do extensive family work, they have found a way to incorporate that because they know that’s so important and it’s –
DEBBIE: Right.
JEFF: – not just important, it really goes quite a long way for assurance of good outcomes and long-term connection. And the family being, you know, kind of having some skills to kind of navigate grief, loss, problematic things that happened in the past. So, yeah. So, I guess I want to say like thinking back to where when I was having regular communication with you, it was really, really helpful. And so I wanna just kinda put a plug in there for Milestones, having a personal experience with, you know, that kind of holistic support and holistic, I mean more than just the individual –
DEBBIE: Thank you.
JEFF: -the family. Yeah.
DEBBIE: Thank you Jeff. Well, actually I want to just kind of pay homage to you and say that, you know, the call, I know the particular, you know, case that we’re talking about, that particular family model, having that call weekly with, you know, yourself and the rest of the family has been a model that I’ve adopted with so many of the families that I’ve worked with over the years.
JEFF: Oh wow!
DEBBIE: Once a week call. Not just to mom, we’re not just to dad or not just to wife. You know, it’s important to get everybody on call together so everybody knows what’s being talked about.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: What are the strengths and what are the challenges of the week, that is so important.
JEFF: Oh my gosh! I love that you’re doing that because like my, I’m not sure how much you know about what I’m trying to do with families online, but the whole family healing kind of thing where it’s like engaging everyone who willingly wants to participate and seeing a larger picture and, you know, having discussion about what they see and re-storying the pathway addiction has taken through their family and where they’re at now and what they want to do together in the future. How to be a family together.
DEBBIE: How to be a family together. Exactly. And just kind of using that model Jeff, it really does bring families back together again in a really productive way.
JEFF: Yeah. And you know, my sense is really it doesn’t take all that much for –
DEBBIE: No.
JEFF: – I mean, because families have their own wisdom.
DEBBIE: Yes. Most of them.
JEFF: And once space is made for that, it’s like I have been amazed with kind of like how things evolve in ways that I never imagined.
DEBBIE: Yes.
JEFF: In a good way.
DEBBIE: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It does evolve in a way where there is no information that’s left out and there’s no family member that’s left out , so anybody that wants to participate in the ongoing dialogue is welcomed and that makes I think treatment and family work effective as well.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. So anything else that you want to share before we kind of bring this to a close?
DEBBIE: You know, I really want to thank you for inviting me to participate in this conversation with you and to talk about, you know, what happens, you know, for families in treatment, what happens for loved ones in treatment, and to, you know, allow me to emphasize the Do’s and the Don’ts post discharge.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEBBIE: I really care much about what happens to the families and the patients after they leave treatment. So, I thank you.
JEFF: I know you care. I had personal experience. Thank you very much Debbie.
DEBBIE: Thank you Jeff.