40: Assessment in Intervention: A Key to a Successful Long Term Outcome with Marie Krebs
“Recovery is a way of life.” –Marie Krebs
Are you looking for an intervention you can trust? Well, you just reached the right corner. No intervention works the same way for everyone and so assessment plays a crucial role. If the intervention seems to intervene blindly to your specific needs, then it probably is no intervention for you. To this end, asking the right question on the onset of mediation is imperative to getting the appropriate type of intervention. So today, let us get a hang on assessment in intervention with our guest, Marie Krebs- the Founder and Principal at Marie Krebs Consulting. As a professional in the addiction field for over a decade, she has already earned numerous trainings and certifications to work with people suffering from addiction and trauma. She is also a licensed professional counsellor and chemical dependency counsellor. Find out what she has to say on how a family can show that they are in solidarity with their loved one.
“Why?”- the hardest of questions yet the key to understanding the deepest of secrets. To be able to draw out water from a deep well, our string must be able to reach the bottom.If the goal of the intervention is just to make the substance or behaviour go away, it is not intervention at all. Therefore, interventionists must know from the standpoint of assessment for it to be truly successful in the long run. We do not want our loved one to revert or switch to a new form of addictive behavior. This podcast is packed with wisdom on that. And while there are hundreds of interventionists out there, caution is strongly recommended. Learn how to spot unscrupulous interventionists and the danger that comes with them. Never underestimate the power of your choice.
Highlights:
03:51 The Assessment Process
18:33 Within Family Circle
27:22 When Does Recovery Really Begin?
31:54 Experiences: Stepping to Their Own Change Process
43:52 Watch Out for Unscrupulous Interventionists!
Resources:
It Takes a Family: A Cooperative Approach to Lasting Sobriety by Debra Jay
#BeOneWithYourLovedOne! Join the discussion on assessment in intervention and #UnscupulousInterventionists! with @TFRSolution and @msmariekrebs Share on X
Connect With Marie
Website: https://www.mariekrebsconsulting.com/
Blog: http://mariekrebsconsulting.com/journal-2/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/msmariekrebs
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mariekrebsconsulting/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marie-krebs-ms-lpc-s-lcdc-srt-ccps-cdwf-a111191
Telephone: 214-315-4810
Quotes:
05:37 “Trauma shows up in a lot of different ways and what is traumatic for one person may not bother another person at all, but it could be extremely traumatic to someone else.” –Marie Krebs
08:14 “It is my belief that people are not abusing alcohol or substances because they like what they feel.” –Marie Krebs
10:26 “I’m not trying to make a link between the trauma as the cause of all addiction… but I’m saying that it does have a role.” –Marie Krebs
13:47 “Many families believe in secret keeping and not airing out dirty laundry. We don’t want to talk about those kinds of things… And so, what we know about is, that it’s our secrets that make us sick and holding on to secrets instead of exposing them to the light of day and exposing them to healing.” –Marie Krebs
15:04 “Just in order to survive, they develop what I refer to as these maladaptive coping strategies… But the trouble with, and the problem with maladaptive coping strategies is, they’re not intended to take us through our lifespan.” –Marie Krebs
18:57 “If you send someone to treatment… it’s like taking someone out of a toxic system (and) putting them into a place where they learn healthy boundaries. (While) the family’s done absolutely nothing to change and they continue to communicate the same way and have the same behaviors. It’s like, you’re putting that person back in that toxic soup all over again.” –Marie Krebs
27:10 “Recovery is a way of life.” –Marie Krebs
30:17 “The question isn’t: ‘Why the addiction?’, It’s: ‘Why the pain?’ ” -Jeff Jones
40:32 “The recipe for recovery is our level of being honest, open and willing. The how of recovery is just how honest, open and willing we are to listening, to being open to changing ourselves, to open to looking at our behaviors.” –Marie Krebs
41:31 “The substance can go away. But if that’s the only thing that goes away… this isn’t going to end well.” –Jeff Jones
53:46 “When you enter into the world of recovery, and you’re wanting your loved one to get recovery, understand that it’s a process. Get with someone that really understands the process that can explain it to you. And then you need to trust the process.” –Marie Krebs
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
This episode of Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery is sponsored by The Family Recovery Solution where we recognize that families are the biggest stakeholder in this addiction crisis and we see that families can be a stronger part of the solution in their own family, in their communities, and in our world. We know that addiction in the family is not the fault of the family. We know that family engagement increases the potential of change happening sooner and positive outcomes lasting longer, as well as navigating healing connections in the family now and well into the future. So we’ve created an online platform for families to safely navigate this journey at their pace. Check out www.thefamilyrecoverysolution.com
JEFF: So welcome everyone, this is Jeff Jones with Podcasts Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery. And today my guest is Marie Krebs. And she is a fellow member of the network of independent interventionists, which is how I met her and I have had some communication with her. Today, she’s going to talk some about intervention, but more specifically about the beginning stages and what interventionists want to know from the standpoint of assessment and why and what families can kind of be on the lookout for when they talked to a different potential interventionist. So welcome Marie.
MARIE: Hi Jeff. Thank you for having me on.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. Thank you. And so, if we could start by, if you could just share a little bit more about who you are so people know you.
MARIE: Sure. So again, Marie Krebs. I’m located in Dallas, Texas. I’m a licensed professional counselor, licensed chemical dependency counselor in the state of Texas. I also have numerous other certifications and trainings, particularly I’m a trauma therapist and work with folks that have various kinds of trauma. I started doing interventions, oh, I don’t know, 10 years ago or so, and they kind of, you know, my experiences, no two interventions are the same. The families that I work with, they may reach out to me to do a, because they have a loved one, either adolescent child or I mean, sometimes the parents have a 20-year-old and I have worked with families that have parents are in their 70’s or 80’s that have, you know, an adult child with some type of an addiction that might be substances, that might be alcohol. It might be gambling addiction. It might be sex addiction or addict control sexual behavior. It can be a variety of different types of addictions. And so, when I, if it’s okay, I’ll just kinda jump in Jeff and kind of talk about my assessment process.
So I developed, essentially it’s a Venn diagram and it’s the constellation of issues that affect mental health. And this is the diagram I use in my pre-intervention meetings with families when I’m working with them. And it’s this tool in order to identify the different domains, if you will, that their loved one might be experiencing. It allows me the opportunity and more insight awareness about the family member or loved one that’s being intervened on. Oftentimes when a family will call, they will be calling about, you know, well either their child or their husband or their wife has struggled with alcohol or drugs and then they start talking about a lot of the behaviors and things that they’ve done, which is important information for me to get. But there’s also a whole lot of other things that the family may not be focused on, which I am, because that is what helps me to essentially kind of get a lay of the land, if you will.
And so, you know, I normally ask about various mental health issues. If there’s any anxiety, depression, any kind of mood disorder that they’re aware of, sometimes they are, sometimes they’re not. If there’s been any kind of previous treatment experiences. If there’s any particular trauma. And oftentimes I have to do some education around, you know, what trauma is. Because many times people think trauma is like, well no, he’s never been in a car accident or he’s never had any kind of, you know, she’s never been raped or something like that. But trauma shows up in a lot of different ways. And what is traumatic for one person may not bother another person at all, but it could be extremely [inaudible]. And so, you know, things like [inaudible] many times, you know, kiddos that are playing football either through high school or college or other sports, volleyball or whatever. Where are they sustained? Numerous concussions. So I’m looking to see if there’s any kind of traumatic brain injury that has either been dormant or, you know, hasn’t been looked at. If there’s, you know, diabetes or some kind of chronic pain, other physical health issues, irritable bowel syndrome, other kinds of things. And then of course, you know, what if they do know what specific drugs or alcohol or substances or behaviors, there’s any been any kind of legal action and things like that.
And it’s difficult I think for families because I’m asking a lot of extremely personal questions of the family that, you know, probably up until now most people wouldn’t have even asked them some of these questions. And it can be very difficult to answer some of those questions if there’s a family history of addiction or abuse or some kind of trauma within the family or if someone had surgeries or various kinds of things or divorced or, loss of job, a lot of moving, bullying. I think you kind of get an idea Jeff, that I’m kind of like looking to see what all is on the field, both for this individual that the family is wanting the intervention done on, but also all the family members involved and you know, their relationships, whether they’re good and strong or if they’re estranged or whatever.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like from the diagram that you sent me and the different questions that you’re asking about the different areas, you’re trying to get as much of a picture of what that person is like, what their life is like, what their challenges that they’ve dealt with are and, you know, maybe how they dealt with some of those challenges. Like helping as much as you can to have a clear picture of the person that the families calling about.
MARIE: Exactly. Well, just because of the way that I’m oriented, if you will, on the way that I do interventions, you know, it is my belief that people are not abusing alcohol or substances because they like what they feel like. Because usually by the time someone is calling for an intervention, there has been a lot of wreckage that has been in the family. And you know, oftentimes people are either at the epicenter of a divorce or already been divorced and the relationships had been damaged in the family, some form or fashion. And so for me, what I’m really trying to uncover here is like what happened to this person that got them to where they are today? What happened with this family that got them to this point today?
I remember years ago I was doing an assessment in my office on this young woman with her mom. And when I asked about the trauma, you know, they both shook their heads: “Oh no. There’s no trauma. There’s no trauma.” And I was like: “Oh, okay. That’s great.” You know, and this gal had been abusing all sorts of substances, but as I talked a little bit more about trauma and I started explaining that to them a little bit more. Well, the next thing I know that girl looks over at her mom: “Mom. Do you remember cousin so and so?” And mom looked at her and then her eyes kind of like lit up. And I said: “Okay, well I don’t know about cousin so and so. Can you mind sharing this story?” And you know, essentially this girl, when she was seven years old, had been molested by an older cousin, kind of like a family secret, right?
JEFF: Right – right.
MARIE: Now, I’m not trying to make, and I hope your viewers here, I’m not trying to make a case that because she had been molested at seven years old, that’s the reason that she’s abusing drugs or alcohol today. That’s not the case at all. But what it does for me is that was a moment in time, if you will, and both for her own personal experience but also how her family responded to that experience. Oftentimes that the way a family response to some kind of trauma within the family, either by minimizing or ignoring, or no, that didn’t happen to you, or you know, the set and the other that is yet another retraumatizing. And so again, I’m not trying to make a link between that trauma is the cause of all addiction because please hear me very loud and clear. I’m not saying that, but I’m saying that it does have a role.
I believe it does have a role and it’s certainly not the cause of just like, you know, a parent’s divorce does not cause, you know, kiddo to start abusing substances or a move or whatever kind of thing. It doesn’t necessarily cause it, but they’re certainly a correlation. And I’m starting to piece together, if you will, out in the field these correlations. Because what I’m trying to look at is some leverage points in terms of how I can connect with that person when I’m going to go in and do this intervention. I’m looking at how I can connect with them in a way, attune with them in a way, so that they feel safe with me. Yes, the family, but also the person that the family has asked me to come and do the intervention with so that they understand that I’m somebody that has their back through this process.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah.
MARIE: Both from the moment they first meet me all the way through their treatment and then after treatment and their aftercare planning and what that’s gonna look like.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. So, some of what I heard you say, and you said a lot there that I got, but one is you made a real clear point that stressors, or challenges, or traumas in the family isn’t like cause and effect.
MARIE: Right.
JEFF: But you mentioned there is a correlation. The way I talk about it is there are factors that happen in one’s life that can contribute to one being vulnerable to addiction or not. And then it’s like what kind of skill set that they have to cope like behaviorally and then just cognitively, how do they make meaning of the situation? And then as you so aptly pointed out, that I think is helpful for families to hear is what was the family response to that? How did the family respond? So that information is really important the way that you’re talking about it, I think it can be really important for families to be listening to the questions that you’re asking and what you’re emphasizing and then they can get a better sense of what some of those potentially contributing factors are. Because I look at addiction as an addiction disruption and their loved one is at the epicenter and they’re in the wreckage around the disruption.
MARIE: Right.
JEFF: So, nice kind of acknowledging the different points that you ask about and why they’re important.
MARIE: Well, and you know, what we know about addiction is that many families, and you know, I understand this, many families believe in secret keeping, you know, and not airing our dirty laundry. We don’t want to talk about those kinds of things, right? The generation that grew up in a house like that as well too. And you know what –
JEFF: Same here.
MARIE: Yeah. Right. And, you know, so what we know about that is that it’s our secrets that make us sick and holding onto secrets instead of, you know, exposing them to the light of day and exposing them to healing. Because, you know, again, I’m of the opinion that, especially when people grow up, and I always say that we all survived childhood. We’re surviving childhood in and of itself. That’s a pretty big feat. Other parts of the world because of infant mortality and disease, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, just surviving childhood and what it’s like to be a kiddo, you know, born and within this century where technology was at this time and access to all sorts of things, and you know, the divorce rates, and broken homes, and economic disparity, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so what happens with kiddos, like you were saying, you know, some tend to be more resilient than others and others, you know, just in order to survive, they develop what I refer to as these maladaptive coping strategies, right?
JEFF: Yes.
MARIE: And I say to them too, they help to serve you well, that’s how you survived your childhood. But the trouble with, and the problem with maladaptive coping strategies is they’re not intended to take us through our lifespan. They’re really not. They’re intended to help us survive childhood and to kind of get through our childhood.
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: And so I helped to try to create that frame, both obviously for the family, but also for, you know, the person that’s being intervened upon and so that it can kind of help to normalize some of their behaviors that are not normal but it helps them to begin to see that they’re not just a bad person, right? They’re not like this horrible person. There are some person that’s survived all that they have survived. They’ve had all of these experiences that all along had been teachers to them, you know, trying to kind of move them to more adaptive coping strategies and they kinda get stuck along the way by this nasty thing called addiction. Or for some people, because I do psychiatric interventions for some people, some pretty profound psychiatric issues. But you know, those that work in the field of treating trauma many and research is starting to bear this out, that many with some pretty significant psychiatric issues also experienced a lot of trauma when they were young as well too.
And remember hearing years ago from a respected leader here in the community that you could have a perfectly healthy, normal child being born into home where there was either addiction in the home or psychiatric issues in the home and have a perfectly normal child turn into a schizophrenic just based on the environment that they were raised, which is really kind of sad if you think about it. But also, you know what I tell people, whether it’s an addiction issue, whether it’s a mental health issue, is that you know, because I have met plenty of people with psychiatric disorders and people with addiction issues, that they are manageable. They are manageable. You can learn better coping, adaptive coping strategies and have a much more meaningful life than you currently have if you are willing to come with me and let’s get this process started and learn some of those things.
JEFF: I really like the emphasis that you put on when you’re talking about “perfectly normal child” and putting them in an environment, a home with whatever craziness going on and that can have an impact on the child’s development to leave them with a diagnosable mental illness of some kind like schizophrenia like you mentioned. So, the environment is really, really important. And what you were saying before, the way the family has reacted to individuals coping with a stressor or a trauma starts to create that environment around them.
MARIE: Yeah.
JEFF: And so, you know, the family plays a really, really important role here.
MARIE: It’s huge, Jeff. It’s so huge. For me, when I am called on by a family to do an intervention, for me, yes, I’m focused on the loved one and the initial stages. But the parallel process that’s going on for me is at least is also how can I get this family some help and encouraging them because we know and research bears it out, if you send someone to treatment, residential treatment or even a PHP experience, partial hospitalization for some kind of treatment.
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: If you bring that loved one back into that family system and that family system has done absolutely nothing while their loved one is away. It’s like taking, you know, someone out of a toxic system, putting them into a place where they learn healthy boundaries, they learned self-care, learn how to take care of themselves. They learn all of these wonderful more adaptive coping strategies. If they come back into the family system and the family’s done absolutely nothing to change and they continue to communicate the same way and have the same behaviors, it’s like you’re putting that person back in that toxic soup all over again.
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: And then families wonder, will he or she relapse? Why is that? And I’m like, well, you know, the whole family piece and family recovery is such, you know, there’s so much stigma Jeff, around addiction issues, around mental health issues. I think where a lot of families where the hard part for them as, because they go into a place of blaming themselves. Right? So even based on what I have said, right? I mean some people could be trying to make a case. Well, she’s just saying that the family’s responsible for this. And I’m saying as I said before, it’s a correlation. Does it cause? So just because you are born into a home with active addiction, sometimes it doesn’t have to be active addiction. Sometimes it might be a person that has a mental health issue. Sometimes there be a disabled child in the house and the primary caregivers’ focus is on that child and not on other members, other children in the family. So, kiddos that grow up in those kinds of homes, they have to come up with, you know, they have these maladaptive coping strategies, right?
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: To kind of explain why their world is the way that it is, but it doesn’t mean that it’s the parents fault or, you know, I mean, this isn’t about blaming the parents because what I want parents to hear, it is my belief and I tell everybody I work with, the parents for the most part, for the most part are doing the utmost best that they can at that moment.
JEFF: Yeah. Absolutely.
MARIE: So even, you know, I know plenty of people that have grown up in alcoholic homes. You know, if the alcoholic parent could have sought treatment, knew how to seek treatment, knew how to do things better, had an opportunity for treatment provided for them. Right?
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: And they chose that. And you, and I know this Jeff, because we work with people all the time who do choose recovery and do go to treatment and, you know, sometimes treatment, especially in our generation job, many, many years ago before, you know, back in our day it was like you go to the hospital for a detox. But even back then there were plenty of people that get sober in the rooms of alcoholics anonymous. Right?
JEFF: Right And still do sometimes.
MARIE: And still do. And still do. But, you know, I always want parents to hear that it’s not about blaming. It’s not about saying that they are responsible for their child’s either addiction or mental health issue as much as it is. Those things that happen, you know, in our homes when we were growing up, there is a causation, I mean a correlation, not causation. Correlation –
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: – between that because of maladaptive coping strategies.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate the emphasis that you’re putting on the family’s role and that it’s not their fault. And if they do nothing while their loved one is away, then when their loved one comes back, there’s a greater chance of relapse. There’s a greater chance for conflict and disconnection and, you know, boundaries that the person new to recovery, they need to have boundaries because the structure of the family is toxic to them and the family takes it as a personal thing, but there’s this impersonal pattern that’s happened. It is like from my perspective, it’s one of the biggest challenges to let families know that they’re involved here. They have an investment and when they engage in a change process themselves, that the long-term outcomes, not only of addiction or sobriety but the long-term outcomes of the family healing are increased.
MARIE: Absolutely. Yup.
JEFF: And you know, sometimes I’ve wondered like, why is it? Why is it so hard? Well, you know, families have a lot of shame and my sense is that a lot of the shame comes from cultural conditioning, or the way we think about addiction, or the way our culture kind of enables addiction it trickles down to the family and the family need ultimately to be responsible for it. They deal with it. And they do it the best they can, but it’s like that little piece right there can be so confusing.
MARIE: Yeah. It really can. And, you know, I oftentimes kind of like, particularly in the case of someone who’s struggling with addiction, you know, like their disease of addiction to something like diabetes. When somebody has been diagnosed with diabetes and they are insulin dependent. And the doctor is very clear about what the treatment protocol is to be and how doctors are trying to teach their patients how to manage their diabetes. And you know, you get to look at diet and exercise and how you’re taking care of yourself. And so, if they go home and whether it’s their wife or their mother or whoever is continuing to put chocolate cake in front of them and continuing –
JEFF: Right. Right.
MARIE: – and not be supportive of what their recovery looks like. At least if a person’s a diabetic, you know, and they’re told, you could lose a foot over this, or you could lose an ankle or your leg over this, or go blind or whatever. You know, when that diabetic goes into the hospital, they don’t treat a person with diabetes or with heart disease the same as they do –
JEFF: With addiction. Yeah.
MARIE: – clients that struggle with addictions. And yet, you know, we’re kind of talking about the same thing here. And I say to families, I’m like: “You’re going to spend this time and this money to intervene on your loved one, to send them away, to get better, to learn some better coping strategies, to learn how to manage this addiction or to manage this mental health issues. And yet, as a family, what are you doing to show that you’re in solidarity with your loved one?”
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: You know, if your kiddo had a nut allergy, are you going to continue to bring nuts in the house? If your kid had celiac disease or gluten intolerant, are you going to keep them sick? And people look at me and of course, we’re not going to do that. And it’s like, well, I’m asking you to stand in solidarity with your loved one that you recognize that they are going to need support. And it doesn’t mean that you are asking them: “Did you go to your meeting this week? Did you call your sponsor?”
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: It’s not about that. It’s about working your own recovery program. I use that word recovery because to me, recovery it’s a way of life. And it doesn’t sound like this to parents and loved ones when I tell them that the easy part is to stop drinking and drugging, but the truth of the matter is that is the easy part. Because what happens when a person stops drinking and drugging is the feelings come up. And it’s about how we work relationships. And that’s where the work of recovery really begins. It’s not about the stop and –
JEFF: I am so on that page. I so appreciate you bringing in the relationships, the connections, and delivering this message to families right in the beginning when you’re doing –
MARIE: Absolutely.
JEFF: – and assessments. So, it’s like you’re planting those seeds right from the get-go and then with every contact that you have with the family, I’m assuming you’re continuing to reinforce, water them.
MARIE: Absolutely. Yes.
JEFF: All of that. And so yeah, I really appreciate the conversation and talking to a like-minded person that isn’t, you know, and the majority of people in NII aren’t like this, but that is just the intervention with the idea of, you know, just grab him and force him into treatment and use the leverage of the relationship to traumatize them again and make it all about them. And then their success rates are, well, it’s harder for them. Despite all that, I know those kinds of interventions have saved people’s lives.
MARIE: Yeah.
JEFF: So, there’s so many different pieces going on and that it isn’t just cause and effect. And I really like the visual. The diagram that you sent me that you visually talked about in the beginning and sending that to families from the get-go when you’re talking to them, I assume?
MARIE: Oh yeah, absolutely. And usually, it’s a diagram that I bring in with me when I’m doing the intervention as well because I want them to understand that I’m not just here because of that quadrant that talks about substance use disorder.
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: I’m not here just for that. Because, you know, I’ve spoken to your family and your friends and people you work with or whomever, you know, whoever is involved in the prevention team. And I’ve heard some of the stories. Usually, I will look at them and say: “It’s remarkable to me that you’re still here.” You know, because for many of them they had a lot, and again, I go back, you know, Gabor Mate and Bessel van der Kolk, both of that, what happened to you? You know, because you do have to kind of go back there to really kind of get an idea of how people end up where they are today.
JEFF: Yeah. It’s like Gabor Mate, the question isn’t why the addiction, it’s why the pain.
MARIE: Right, yeah. What happened to you.
JEFF: And that’s one of the main quadrants on your diagram.
MARIE: Yeah.
JEFF: There is the pain and you’re asking these questions is, you know, trying to bring out everything in the field or the surroundings about that person to where you can get the best idea of them and how to connect with them before you even meet them. And the family can start to get a broader understanding of the factors around them and not just stay narrowly focused on the problem or the problem person or whatever. So
MARIE: Or the behaviors. Yup. Yup. Exactly.
JEFF: Yeah. So, I mean, do you have any, you know, just compilations of stories, success stories that you’re aware of that you use this assessment and some of the things that you have seen as far as people kind of getting a light bulb go off and going, oh my gosh! I see now and then them kind of engaging and stepping into their own change process.
MARIE: Sure. Well, a couple of cases come to mind, I think about a young mom and I had done an intervention on her husband. They had less than two years old and I had done an intervention on her husband. And the day that I was there, you know, obviously the big meeting, if you will. And then he took me outside and he says: “I’m not going to go today. I’ll go, but I’m not going today.” And I said: “That’s okay. That’s okay. Let’s stay in touch.” And while I was in that process with him, I’m in the process with the wife and then the grandparents and the others. And I told the wife, I said: “If you don’t hear anything that I say, I’m telling you, if you want the system to change in this relationship between you and your husband, I’m going to strongly encourage you to start going to Al-Anon.”
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: And she listened. She did straight away, got in and got a sponsor and her husband I got him to treatment four days later. Like, of course, his trying to wiggle but, you know, I compelled them to go. And he did. He actually left treatment early. He wasn’t drinking alcoholically when he first got back, but there have been instances of that and yet she’s working her program, right?
JEFF: Wow!
MARIE: So, you know, for me, I still see it as a win. I mean, whether he chooses to be sober or not, that’s going to pretty much be up to him. He knows where recovery is. But I think what’s important is she has completely changed her way of communicating with him. How she relates with him and their co-parenting is very different today. And you know, I mean, and again, just because somebody doesn’t get sober doesn’t mean that it has to end in divorce, sometimes it does. Sometimes people don’t choose recovery and families, one or the other spouse decides it’s time to leave. I had a situation with the family that I’d done an intervention on their older son. He was like in his twenties. Went to a longer term, you know, 90-day program and went to sober living.
And I had encouraged the family at the beginning to get involved and going to Al-Anon or families anonymous. In the beginning, they started a little bit, but then, of course after he discharges from treatment, he goes to sober living. Then after sober living, their son ends up in an apartment sharing an apartment with a fellow that he’d met in sober living. And then I get a call from the mom that, you know, he started smoking pot again and she’s terrified. Oh, it’s so scary. And I said: “Well, are you ready to start doing the structured family recovery?” Which is another model that I like, I’m trained in it, I don’t do it so much myself anymore, but I do introduce it to families and try to get them involved in it. It’s a program, the book is called, It Takes a Family. It’s by Deborah, Jeff Jay.
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: And it’s a great book. The first half of the book is really focused on explaining addiction and explaining how and what types of treatment and management tools, if you will, the people who adopt these ways to manage their addiction, they can sustain sobriety. So, you know, I get the family of course involved in that. And yeah, I mean, last report all as well, things are, you know, they’re doing good.
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: And so what I know is that we talk about addiction, sobriety, recovery, it’s all a journey. Well, so is life. And so, to think it’s going to happen in a vacuum and it’s going to be this really quick fix kind of a thing. It isn’t. What I know is that after working with hundreds of families at this point, I know that people that are open and willing to look at themselves, to look at their part, and how they show up in their relationship with their loved one, which is really all that Al-Anon ask us to do is to look at our part and how we show up in our relationships with others and how we can communicate with them more effectively.
JEFF: Yeah. I really, the emphasis thereof helping the family to get connected, I know that’s so important and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said to people, have you ever heard of Al-Anon? That would be a good idea. And I think of one family years ago I worked with for about a year and a half maybe and the mom would never go to Al Anon. And then they were on vacation and she went to one meeting and we would have like every other week check-insAl-Anon at kind of thing. And I would ask about Al-Anon occasionally, not all the time, but when she got back from vacation, she goes: “Jeff, I want you to know that I went to an Al-Anon meeting. It’s not for me. I’m not going to.” And so it was, I didn’t ask about it. But it was like people that I’ve seen that go to Al-Anon and stay there, they make changes and a fair amount of them have their own personal transformation.
MARIE: Sure.
JEFF: And Al-Anon is not forever everyone. And for some people, the situation needs to get really, really bad before they’re willing to go in there. So, I really, you know, having other sources and sources that can be in conjunction with other resources and –
MARIE: Absolutely.
JEFF: – I’m a big proponent of the multiple pathways and multiple systems of support. And I mean things like AA and Al-Anon, I have plenty of clients said that’s not what they like and they’ve had bad experiences. But the upshot is there’s a community there. People are honest. People are telling the truth. It isn’t like, and you named it right from the get-go, it isn’t like being in an environment where secrets grow and thrive. It’s like being in an environment where people are being honest with one another. There are communities all around the world, so there’s like-minded people to connect with all around the world. It’s like that can’t be overlooked regardless of how someone feels about, you know, that model and some of the stuff in it. It’s like that’s a huge resource, just from the standpoint of like-minded people and honesty and community. And so, yeah. I really like the idea of multiple pathways who individual and family recovery and for families to stay engaged over time. This isn’t about just getting Johnny “fix”.
MARIE: Yeah, yeah. Well, the last thing I’ll say about Al-Anon too is, and I completely agree with people, it is not for everybody. But what I oftentimes will say to people, and this is whether it’s an Al-Anon meeting or an AA meeting or NA or SA or whatever, you know. I’ve said this for years and I had one guy answer me, not the way that I was anticipating him like most people, I’d say: “Have you ever gone and had a bad haircut?” And most people will say, yeah. And I said: “Well, do you keep going to the same hairdresser or you go to a different hairdresser.” And most people say: “Well, I’ll go to a different hairdresser.” And then one day I had a guy said: “No, I still go to the same guy.”
JEFF: [laughing]
MARIE: [laughing] All right, well you just totally blew my point I was trying to make, which is that, you know, I get that some people are not going to necessarily resonate just cause you ahh, like you’re walking into an Al-Anon meeting or families anonymous or whatever. Oh, it’s going to be the best meeting ever. But you don’t stop going because of that, you know?
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: I know that in Al-Anon, we ask people to go to at least six meetings before they decide, you know, completely and fully that this is not for me. But again, the recipe if you will, for recovery is our level of being honest, open, and willing. You know, the recovery is just how honest, open, and willing we are to listening to being open to changing ourselves, to be open to looking at our behaviors, and how we show up in our relationships. And you know, it’d be quite honest Jeff, I think that there’s a lot of people, both in the recovery community and outside the recovery community that they may get sober from substances, but in terms of actually working in plan of a program of recovery, which is more about how they’re showing up and doing their relationships. That’s why that expression dry drunk, you know, I’m sure you’ve heard that expression. They stopped drinking, but they are some angry people.
JEFF: Yeah. That is a really, really important point. You know, that the substance can go away, but if that’s the only thing that goes away, the way I put it is, this isn’t going to end well. It isn’t just about removing a substance because it needs to be replaced with something new.
MARIE: Right. And unfortunately what happens is kind of like this, you know, bobbin’ head dolls, they stop using drugs or alcohol and then all of a sudden they’re dealing with out of control sexual behavior or gambling or workaholism or shopping addiction or something else. And you know, which again, it’s kind of like that’s why it’s a process. It’s not like, you know, go to treatment for 30 days and think your loved one’s going to come back and everything’s going to be great, cause it doesn’t work like that. It really doesn’t.
JEFF: It doesn’t work like that, we know that. And that thinking is out there in the cultural milieu or something. And I used to think it was more like individual families, but I don’t think so. I think it’s more than thinking is just prevalent out there. So, family’s real. What I talk about with addiction is, addiction is an opportunity for everyone in the family to take a look at what’s going on, to recognize some of what’s not working so well for them to make their own changes. And you know, one person’s change isn’t going to be like another person’s change.
MARIE: Right.
JEFF: And so yeah, that’s really important. But I want to kind of circle back to the beginning of what you were talking about, like the initial families, their initially calling and interventionists. And so, are there like some points that you would like families to know about, some criteria to help them have an understanding of what interventionists may be best for them or some questions they could ask and stuff?
MARIE: Absolutely Jeff. And you know, I hate saying this about our industry and our field, but there’s a lot of extremely unscrupulous people out there. People as interventionists, it’s a completely unregulated field. You know, a person could go to treatment and be six months sober and call themselves an interventionist, a sober companion.
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: Throw up a really snazzy looking website because maybe they’ve got a buddy that does it work or something like that and the family is none the wiser.
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: What I would say is if you are looking to work with an interventionist, some of the things to look at when you go on their website, make sure that when you’re calling them, make sure that you’re actually speaking to the actual interventionists yourself and that you’re not speaking with a call center. There are some, again, unscrupulous business folks out there who will divert calls from, whether it’s a treatment center or an interventionist or whatever to a call center. The next thing you know you’re talking to some kiddo or someone completely on trying on the other end of the phone that’s just trying to get you to go to a treatment center, their particular treatment center. They’ll send you an interventionist. It won’t cost you a thing. And, yeah. And of course, when you’re looking at the expense of doing an intervention, as families are thinking: “Ooh, I can get a free interventionist.” Yeah, but you’re not getting somebody that is certified and trained. You know, like I said, I’m licensed.
JEFF: Right.
MARIE: The majority of us as members of NII, we are licensed clinicians. So, we have something to lose if things go awry, we have a license, right?
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: There is nothing from keeping, some in a column for what they are, cause I think they’re hacks. These people who were out there claiming to be these interventionists that don’t have a lot of training. Yeah, maybe they got sober, but they go in and they take, you know, money from a family and the intervention doesn’t go well and there’s like no kind of recourse for the family. And I can’t tell you how many calls that I get where they paid this interventionist $5,000 or $10,000. I happen to know that interventionist and I know that they’re not licensed. And they promise the moon to this family and you know, they get nothing. They get absolutely nothing. And so, I would say that when a family is calling, ask a lot of questions. If they say they are certified, if they say that they are, there’s one local one here that using the eye roll right now, I’m sure who claims to be SBIRT certified. SBIRT is a Screening, Brief Interventions, Referral to Treatment that is offered through SAMHSA, which is a federally funded government program. SBIRT certifications are really for people who work in community behavioral health.
JEFF: Right. It’s kind of an assessment, initial little brief.
MARIE: Very, very brief. Right.
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: I want you to hear the whole thing. This is a really snazzy looking website. There are two of them in this group. I’m not going to name their names, but one of them has a JD but doesn’t practice, claims that has the ability that she has the ability to do psychiatric assessment and referrals, substance abuse assessment and referrals because she is SBIRT certified and I’m here to tell you that it’s a bogus. But I’ve also seen these other interventionists that they’ll say things on their websites like, I’ve had 10 years of experience and training, blah, blah, blah, but I’m sitting there going: “Training? Really? Well, where did you train? Tell me about your training. Tell me about your certifications. When did it happen?” Again, I call these, these self-anointed because that’s what it is. They’re self-anointed interventionists or treatment consultants that fancy themselves as if they know what they’re doing and they really don’t know what they’re doing. And I think to me, you know, the interventionist or the treatment center that over promises, I can guarantee that they’re going to under deliver.
Any treatment center that you speak to, that a family member speaks to and they tell you as a family member, a normal question you would ask, right? Well what’s your success rate at a treatment center and what are they going to say? 85% sobriety, right? That’s a lot. Some of them stretch and say 90% right? And I’m like, well, yeah, like while they’re in treatment. Yeah, we can keep them sober while we keep them in treatment, but are they talking about what their success rates are after a month later, six months, a year out? Those are the questions to ask and drill down. I think the scary part, and I just absolutely ached for these families because normally, by the time a family gets to the point where they’re ready to do an intervention, they’re absolutely terrified. Terrified. They’re in a panic state. They’re ready for some quick action. They’re trying to make a decision in a really quick amount of time. And you know, it’s like the people that tell you what you want to hear. See, and I always say to families, I’m like: “You’re not going to really like what I’m about to tell you, but I gotta tell you anyhow. You’re going to get the truth from me. You may not like it, but I’m going to be honest with you.”
And you know, the grab and go interventionists. I did with a colleague, I was at the UT San Antonio medical school. I was doing a presentation on interventionists and one of the Docs that was in the room, he said: “Well, what is this? You’re talking about going in and attuning with the client and you know, blah, all this.” And I said, well, cause he was of the old kind of grab and go Johnson. Just kind of grabbing by the neck and haul him out. And the issue with that, particularly with adolescence, my opinion I think that causes so much trauma that also lasts for years to come and I think that there’s a better way to do things, a better way to do interventions. And I think that as an industry, those of us who are part, certainly a part of NII strive to do things better, to be a kind of a beacon of hope for about how we do things that we don’t take payments from treatment centers.
Treatment centers that want me to be their primary reference. Thank you. no, thank you. I don’t work like that. I don’t take money or payment from treatment centers, wouldn’t accept it. But there are plenty that do, and they do patient brokering and they work with some pretty, pretty unscrupulous. And so what I say to families, if you’re looking for an interventionist that you can have confidence in, look at our website. I think network of independent interventionists, I think that my colleagues that are a part of this organization and there’s not a whole lot of us, there’s hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of interventionists out there. And when you think about the hundreds and hundreds of interventionists out there, Jeff, and then how many of us that are actually a part of the network of independent interventionist that have an ethical code that we all operate by, not just some of us, but we all operate by. We should tell families that, you know, there’s the rogue self-anointed, self-appointed interventionist out there. And then there’s the people that are, you know, doing things from an ethical lens in terms of our relationship with the family and how we work with the treatment centers. And I would encourage families to take the time, ask questions and if it seems like they’re telling you something too good to be true, they probably are.
JEFF: Yeah. Wow. Well, there is quite a bit of out of integrity addiction professionals out there in our field and when families are trying to make decisions and their whole family system is in a state of overwhelm and their nervous system is activated and there’s less blood flow to the Cortex, the part of the brain that they need to make the best decisions, I mean families having a number of challenges there in that situation. And one, I would like families to encourage to reach out for help before like it’s a life or death situation, or it’s been a life or death situation a number of times. But really just calling and reaching out to people and starting to get information. And one of the things that I always like to say is call several interventionists. Have several conversations. Have your questions in a line there and ask them all the same thing. And you know, listen to how people answer the question and how it lands for you.
MARIE: Right. Exactly.
JEFF: So yeah, and Network Independent Interventionists, I definitely want to put a plug out there for them. And any closing comments that you have Marie? And here’s a specific question, like if you had the ear of all family members with an addictive loved one, what is one or two things that you would want them to know?
MARIE: What I would want them to know is that when you enter into the world of recovery and you’re wanting your loved one to get recovery, understand that it’s a process. Get with someone that really understands the process that can explain it to you, and then you need to trust the process.
JEFF: Trust the process.
MARIE: Trust the process because it’s like having a loved one with cancer or some kind of a diagnosis that, and of course you’re scared to death and I get it, but I’m not going to go in and think that I know better than an oncologist how to treat a loved one with cancer. I’m going to trust the professionals, but I’m going to make sure that I’m asking enough. I’m going to advocate for my loved one. I’m going to advocate for my family. I would ask families to do that as well. Ask a lot of questions. And if you have an interventionist or your working with the treatment center that’s not comfortable with you asking a lot of questions, get off the phone.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah.
MARIE: Because my colleagues Jeff, your the same way, I mean, I’m not afraid of answering any questions that family has, but you also have to know that if we’re telling you something, and it may not be something that you want to hear, we’re at least being honest with you. We’re going to tell you that, you know, what’s the success rate? I don’t know. There’s a lot of factors involved.
JEFF: Yeah.
MARIE: And I can talk about the factors that are involved, but part of it’s going to include what you as a family do and how you respond when your loved one goes to treatment. You know, normally like, okay good, he’s gone now. Let them fix him and so he or she comes back. Yeah. But trust the process. Trust the professionals and trust the process because people do get better. People manage their addictions every day.
JEFF: Thank you. And how people could connect with you, your website, phone number. How do you want people to connect with you, Marie?
MARIE: Sure. Well, they can just go to my website, which is really, it’s easy. It’s my name, it’s Marie Krebs that spelled K-R-E-B-S consulting.com. And when you go on my website, I have a tab up at the top that says services and when that drops down it says intervention. And it really talks more about me and the process of intervention and you know, give some more background about me and my training. Families can also reach me by my phone number, which is (214) 315-4810.
JEFF: All right, Marie. Thank you very much.
MARIE: Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate the opportunity.
JEFF: Sure.