28: A Child-Centered Family Program with Jerry Moe
“And who holds our emotional heartstrings more than our children or our grandchildren.”- Jerry Moe
Welcome to the 45th Annual Winter Symposium! We know traditional conferences as a gathering packed with professionals and their talks but this one where we find our host is surely remarkable as it is designed to be educational in a fun and exciting way! Jeff surely is ecstatic about this conference and meeting field experts that can help us too to be conversant about new and multi-faceted ways of recovery.
Now, for the highlights of today’s episode: a very heart-touching interview with one of the featured faculty of this highly esteemed four-day annual addiction conference, Jerry Moe. We surely look forward to additional learnings from our guest who is a seasoned trainer, lecturer, author, Advisory Board Member of the National Association for Children of Addiction (NACoA), and National Director of the Betty Ford Children’s Program.
When we talk about addiction, we customarily think of adults struggling to be sober and their adult family members supporting them along the way. Seldom though, do we recognize that this premise is lacking in many ways. On the other hand, the counterpart of this scenario is one that must be considered with all seriousness-the children of addiction and their role in the recovery of the whole family. Learn more about this intriguing topic as Jeff interviews Jerry about why it is important to give attention to children, how profoundly they are affected, in what ways they express their anxieties, how they can put a stop to the generational pattern of addiction and how their little voices can have the greatest impact in the family endeavor. Of course, knowing about all these is not enough without the life-changing topic: what adults can do.
Highlights:
01:52 Children Centers: Walking Like You Own It
O8:08 Expressing Addiction Anxiety
21:09 A Child-Centered Family Program
28:29 The Invisible Story
33:22 The Power of a Group
Resources
‘It Will Never Happen to Me!’ Growing Up as Children of Alcoholics: As Youngsters-Adolescents- Adults by Claudia Black
The Alcoholic Family in Recovery Stephanie Brown and Virginia Lewis
Step in to the unseen, unheard and unspoken world of the children of addiction with our host @TFRSolution and National Director of Children Programs at the Betty Ford Center, Jerry Moe #littlevoices Share on X
Connect With Jerry
Telephone: 760 773 4103
Quotes:
06:10 “Children’s voices are valuable, so important and needs to be heard.”- Jeff Jones synthesizing Jerry’s main point
10:20 “We’re talking almost today in America 1 out of 3 kids when you add the opioid-heroin epidemic which has taken us by storm… and the irony is so many of them believe they’re only one.”-Jerry Moe
12:10 “It’s never easy but it’s easier for children because they have less baggage to work through than adults do… but you say something really intriguing and that is talking about early recovery.” -Jerry Moe
14:43 “It’s not just the addiction, it’s all the things that go along with it … and if nobody explains it to boys and girls, they make up a story for it all to make sense and all too often that story is egocentric because of where they are developmentally and they think: ‘It must be me. It must be my fault.’- Jerry Moe
26:38 “And who holds our emotional heartstrings more than our children or our grandchildren.” -Jerry Moe
27:11 “And that’s the promise you see in a children’s program – When children are given the language and are given permission and they can have that voice…”-Jerry Moe
28:14 “In most cases, kids love their parents and really would like to see healing take place.” -Jerry Moe
29:33 “It’s a potential for a child to change that generational pattern … how do you put a value on that!”- Jeff Jones
33:08 “This is a disease of isolation, for family members as well. It’s a disease of silence and shame and secrecy. And there’s a power of being in a room with a group of people just like me that allow me to connect in a way that I’ve never connected before.” -Jerry Moe
36:48 “It’s that heart to heart stuff. While I need the information and I need the understanding so I need that head stuff, it’s that heart stuff- that sense of connection; that sense that while were different, our similarities in terms of how we’re interacting with this disease we’re faced with far outweigh the differences.” -Jerry Moe
39:49 “That rule of thumb everyday is just we never stand stealth, we’re either walking into our recovery or were slipping back…”-Jerry Moe
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
JEFF: So today, I am here at the Winter Symposium down in Colorado Springs. It’s a four day event, actually in Colorado. It is the annual addiction conference essentially. I’m here today with Jerry Moe, the founder of Children’s Program, Betty Ford’s Children’s Program. And I’ve known Jerry for a good number of years. I’ve seen him speak a number of times. Actually today, I’m going to see him speak as well. And I have the privilege to have the interview recorded conversation with him. Welcome Jerry.
JERRY: Jeff, thank you so much for having me today. The topic of children and families is so important and often overlooked in the addiction field. So, it is a gift and blessing to be with you this morning.
JEFF: Yeah, thanks. And I so agree that topic is overlooked. Children are overlooked and families are overlooked. What you have been able to do, I have so much respect for and the Betty Ford Children’s program. There was one in Aurora, there’s one in California and there’s one in Texas somewhere I think Austin or something.
JERRY: And actually what’s happened recently is our Texas Children’s program, which was in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex has moved to Minnesota.
JEFF: Oh my gosh!
JERRY: Yes. And just yesterday was the conclusion of our first program in Minnesota because when we think about it, when the Hazelden Betty Ford came together in a merger and became the Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation. The Hazelden side of the equation had never had a children’s program before and there are five Hazelden Betty Ford treatment centers in Minnesota. There’s two outpatient programs. There is center city, which is really the mothership of Hazelden Betty Ford. There is a young adult, adolescent program in Plymouth, Minnesota. And then there is day treatment and intensive outpatient programming that takes place in St Paul. And so the idea was moving the program to a place where there was a bigger pool of children and families that we could serve.
JEFF: Yeah, and I’m guessing just for what you described in Minnesota that it kind of fills out the program as far as services bringing children’s services to everything they have in Minnesota.
JERRY: You know, so often it’s the missing link. And it’s just not children that benefit, obviously they do. We see families that begin to heal, but think about that person in treatment from alcoholism or other drug addiction. I see this at the Betty Ford Center in California Jeff. Often people get to treatment and they’re there for a couple of weeks and then what really hits them is: “Oh my goodness, this disease I never asked for has not only deeply impacted my life, but it’s impacted the lives of everybody I love.”
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: Which is incredibly painful to come to that spiritual realization. So many of the folks in treatment, Jeff, and it’s no different here in any of the treatment centers in Colorado for that matter, is that many of those patients then begin to remember what happened to them when they were kids because they grew up with this disease.
JEFF: Right.
JERRY: And so the the elevator goes down another couple of floors in terms of the depth in terms of realizing, my goodness, I grew up with this myself and I said I’d never let this happen, and lo and behold, look where I am today.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: And so to give those folks an opportunity to interact with their children, to come together as a family. One of the things we see all the time and we’re given this feedback is that patients or people in recovery who will bring their kids at the end of the program will say: “Do you know what? I walk out of here with a lot less guilt and shame because what my kids have told me is they love me. They hate my disease, but they don’t want to lose me.”
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: And so, and that’s an incredible relief. I’ve always felt that guilt and shame set people up for relapse.
JEFF: Oh my gosh! Yeah.
JERRY: All the time.
JEFF: It’s like when you were describing the metaphor of the elevator going down a couple floors, I was thinking to myself, hopefully that happened because so often times it’s like it nears that and then it’s a balanced back up. It live with the guilt and shame: “Oh my gosh! That’s so horrible. I could never go there.” And that fear and really when they can be in a safe environment to allow those feelings, they can get to this place of what you were talking about to go, oh my god, you know, the impact, how it’s gone out to my whole family and then have those memories of like my own childhood kind of thing. And so what I like when I first heard you speak, I was just blown over with the message that children’s voices are so valuable, so important and need to be heard.
JERRY: So true. And often, in a family, Dr Claudia Black, my dear friend taught us this years ago in her bestselling book It Will Never Happen to Me. What do we learn growing up in a family that’s challenged by addiction? Well, we learned don’t talk. Don’t trust and don’t feel. And so those voices tend to be muted. So being able to come to a place that’s safe.
JEFF: Right.
JERRY: And building a relationship with some skilled and talented counselors here in Colorado, what an incredible team of young men and women who do this work. I’m so, so proud of their energy and their passion and their ability to connect with kids, you know, create a safety that allow boys and girls to be able to talk about: “Hey, this is what happened.” And when they write a story Jeff, and listen to these instructions because I think they’re critical. So, boys and girls at the end of the second day and why an all day program? To build relationships, to build community.
JEFF: To build trust.
JERRY: To build trust and bonding into real. And to me, you know, the essence of spirituality, that sense of how we’re connected. How can I walk into a children’s program when I’m nine years old Jeff, and I meet you and you’re 11, and we live in different places and our families look different, but what’s the same about you and me is we’ve both had to deal with this awful disease in our families. So that sense of community is huge. And so then boys and girls will write a story. I will ask them to write a story. How has addiction hurt your family?
JEFF: The other thing, Jerry, that I have to say, it’s like when I’ve seen your program, the artwork. Like sometimes, it comes out in different ways. So some people have a story, they can write the story. Other people, they’re learning processing –
JERRY: The pictures.
JEFF: – the pictures.
JERRY: The same thing. And, you know, you hit on a really important point, Jeff. And that is when children come to us in a program and the ones that I do anyway, I’m always looking at what is the primary mode of learning for these kids. Now someone invest experientially. Others are incredibly creative. Others, it’s more kinesthetic and tactile. For some it’s auditory, but much fewer than we think anyway. And so you’re right, you know, some boys and girls, they will draw. And their drawings Jeff, talk about emotion and talk about the sense of connection that gets created. Other kids who tend to be very quiet and who might just draw stick figures, which is fine.
JEFF: Right.
JERRY: But when it’s time to write, you know, they’re not writing one or two pages, they’re writing seven or eight pages. Other boys and girls, it’s just through talking. I mean, one of my favorite parts of the program is that second morning, boys and girls come, ’cause in the first morning, you know, sometimes there’s fear, there’s trepidation, some boys and girls don’t want to be there and they’re not sure what’s going to happen. They come back the second day and after being with us, you know, seven and a half hours, they walk in like they own the place. This is their place, which I just sit and like you’re doing now. I just sit and giggle. This is their place, but not everybody gets there at the same time. And so as boys and girls, you know, do a name tag with their first name and sit in the circle. They begin to compare notes. This is what brings tears to my eyes. So, one boy look over at a girl and say: “You get scared on the weekends too? Because you’re not sure what’s going to happen, or you thought it was your fault, or you get embarrassed and don’t want to bring friends home because you were afraid they might then find out what’s going on. And so we’re talking almost today in America, one out of three kids.
JEFF: One out of three.
JERRY: Almost. Almost one out of three, when you add the opioid heroin epidemic which has taken us by storm almost one out of three kids. The irony is so many of them believed that the only one.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: And so coming to a place where they can connect.
JEFF: Well, and when they believe they’re the only one and I mean, I know in my family it was like there are secrets as a child where I could feel them. There was one thing was said, but then there was something else that was done and as a child who was crazy making and I was trying to make meaning of it and understand it. I didn’t have the opportunity to have some kind of safe space where I could look across the circle and say, and you experienced this and you experienced this, and like when that happens, it’s like there’s new neural networks being connected in that child’s brain, you know, and that is so powerful. So, I’m really blown away by what you’ve created, the opportunity that you’ve created for children and for families. And one reason why is because within change with addiction, so oftentimes it’s that person with the addiction. Once they get into recovery, once they’re down the road a bit, they end up potentially, ideally, hopefully leading the whole family into a change process. And I’ve often thought like, why is it just that one person and what you’re doing? You’re kind of saying, hey, kids can do this too.
JERRY: Absolutely. And sometimes it’s easier for children. It’s never easy, please don’t take me wrong, but it’s easier for children because they have less baggage to work through.
JEFF: Weigh less than –
JERRY: Than adults do, but you know, you say something really intriguing and that is talking about early recovery. Now Dr Stephanie Brown, who works at the treatment institute up in Northern California, wrote a classic book over 20 years ago and it’s called The Alcoholic Family and Recovery. So the whole book is based on research of talking about families with five years, with 10 years, with 20 years of recovery. How did they get there? Because often we don’t talk about that point. And in the book, Stephanie makes the argument that nobody talks about the trauma of early recovery because everything changes. And what you’re describing Jeff, is if it’s just the person who has that primary disease of alcoholism or drug addiction that’s working on recovery, what’s really changed for the rest of the family.
JEFF: Right.
JERRY: And so, and not including them and giving families an opportunity to heal is a real wasted opportunity for everyone and for the family itself.
JEFF: Yeah. And so oftentimes what I see is there’s like when someone gets in early recovery, there’s a wedge between that person and the family and it can play out in different ways. But the relationships, the healing, like how does this family communicate together? Like, you know, how do they problem solve together? Like, ideally they come up with different methods of doing that than what they had done before and if they don’t, that environment in my mind there’s still vulnerability for people to cope in the way they did before. So like bringing children into the mix, having their voices be heard. And I love the story, like they come in like, they own the place.
JERRY: They own the place. This is their place. This was created for them.
JEFF: Well it was created for them, but what I get from that is like it changes in their body. They’re on a cellular level. And kids are so malleable and it’s like wow.
JERRY: And they have the opportunity to not only finally be told that it’s not their fault because when boys and girls experienced trauma and growing up in a family hurt by addiction certainly qualifies, because it’s not just the addiction, it’s all the things that go along with it, whether it’s neglect or verbal violence or separation or a parent incarcerated. Let’s not forget co occurring disorders that mom or dad might also be challenged by a mental health disorder. And if nobody explained it to boys and girls, they make up a story for it all to make sense. And all too often that story is egocentric because of where they are developmentally. And I think it must be me. It must be my fault. So helping kids see that it’s not their fault. Giving them some understanding that you know what? Now mom and dad in the Children’s program, Jeff, we call it T and R Treatment and Recovery, arch nemesis of addiction, that when mom or dad sticks with Treatment and Recovery, addiction can’t mess with that person anymore.
There was this little kid who was really quiet Jeff, great story. And he’s looking as we’re describing and he’s raising his hands, he’s about 10 years old, very smart, perceptive little kid, and he says, he looks at me and says: “I can explain it better than you can.” And I said, well, teach me. And he says: “What I think you’re really saying is T and R. What it really is, it’s like base in the game of tag because when you sit on base you can’t get caught again. You’re free.” And it was a great analogy that I had never thought of. And so, explaining to boys and girls, that’s why moms and dads need to go to these meetings. That’s why they need to live a recovery lifestyle. That’s why they need to have some new friends and the family needs to develop some new means of communicating with each other, which you made reference fill and doing things together. And I think sometimes if you just explain it to them.
JEFF: Right.
JERRY: It takes away the crazy making of it.
JEFF: Oh! Because I grew up like as a child with addiction in my family from my grandfather.
JERRY: Okay. Sure.
JEFF: And my grandfather was a person in my life that showered more love and attention upon me than anybody.
JERRY: Oh, wow.
JEFF: However, and so when we went down to Kentucky Lake for two weeks out of the summer, it’s like, for me it was glorious.
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: But I saw other dynamics in the family that totally blew me away. And as a seven, eight, nine year old, I understood. I got that. And one of it was like my mom was in the background and she was mousy. She was quiet. She was never mousy, and she was never – I would never use those words. But in Kentucky and my dad was like comforting her and nurturing her and my dad never needed to do that to my mom, so it was like, it was confusing to me. And all this love and attention that I got from my grandfather, my sister and my three female cousin, they didn’t get any of that. So there’s like all these relationships and I create a story.
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: I have belief systems, if I identify with that story and carry it into my adulthood, which I did, you know, then I start my adulthood with defensive coping.
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: And that is the best I know unless I learned new skill sets.
JERRY: You hit the nail on the head. I mean I have a simple mind Jeff, and that’s why working with kids is the best for me. And so when kids make up that story to help them explain what’s happening in their family, I see three things that happened and you just hit on another one, so we already talked about. We tend to be egocentric with a story. The story is erroneous. It’s so far off base because it wasn’t about you. It was a disease that your grandfather had that manifested itself and everybody in the family. But the third thing that I see, because I’ve always worked in a treatment center, so I’m dealing with people in treatment, is the very stories that little kids tell themselves for it all to make sense. If nobody comes along when they’re children or adolescents or even young adults and tells them the truth, I see that story and childhood being a life script that really thwarts growth and development and gets in the way of people becoming all that they were meant and destined to be.
JEFF: Yeah. Well and it took me like 40 years or something like that to change which, I mean my big thing is this online family programming. I’m valuing it.
JERRY: Yeah, you are.
JEFF: Because I really want to create an opportunity for families to see like a larger pattern and for them to get this overall thing and to start to look at it differently. And then there’s so many resources that people can reach out to. Like even if they get their own therapist –
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: – or their own coach or go to an Al-Anon group or you know, whatever it is, there’s resources and to make that change so it doesn’t take people 40 years –
JERRY: Exactly.
JEFF: – to change. I have drugs and alcohol in my background, but I’m more in the natural recovery kind of camp.
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: As opposed to being drugged through the mud by addiction. Pulling me by the scruff of my neck.
JERRY: Thank goodness.
JEFF: Yeah, but it’s like, so I have so much respect for your program and what you’re doing and empowering children. And I love this, I need to say it a second or third time. It’s like when children walk in that second day and they’re like owning the place. It’s like they got something. They got something that will change their story –
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: – about themselves and about their family. And I love the way in that. In your program you separate addiction from their parent.
JERRY: Absolutely. Yeah. And if you think about it again, that’s why these days anyway, you know, the older I get just a little bit more wisdom gets sprinkled in, hopefully, I see a little bit but not a whole lot, but I want to stop calling this a children’s program what it really is. That’s why being on your podcast was so important for me. This is really a child centered family program because we’re working with those moms and dads. We’re working with the grandma or the foster parent or the Casa volunteer who brings the kids. And what’s amazing is that, here a parent who spends two full days, that Saturday and Sunday with us. They might be a family member who’s experienced this disease and their loved one who’s trapped is still out in it active, which we could never allow to participate or they might be someone who has some recovery or just out of treatment. So, it’s for the grownups often an aha moment for them is to separate themselves from their disease or separate themselves from their parents disease.
JEFF: Well, Jerry, the story I saw you speak this one time and one of the big takeaways for me was the time in the program that the child has the opportunity to talk to their mom or their dad –
JERRY: Right. Sure.
JEFF: – whose in the epicenter of the addiction. And for them to be able to say, you know: “Mom, I really love you and I hate addiction. I hate your disease.”
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: But for them to be able to do that, that’s like such a powerful kind of message. I’m not sure like statistically if you guys keep track, but like when people hear from their child, like that’s got to have an impact on the parent.
JERRY: Oh, there’s no doubt. There was a gentleman doing a program right here in Colorado. It was in Denver some years ago. Now the children’s program in Colorado on May 1st will be 16 years old. So hard to believe for doing a program. And so there was a gentleman who had done 90 days in treatment at one of the finest treatment centers here in the state of Colorado and he brought his little girl. And she sat with him during that sharing exercise. And she’d written down four or five sentences she was going to share. And, you know, he sat and he’s white knuckle in that chair pretty good. And she’s across from him and I’m sitting on the floor between them wanting this to be a step in their healing. That’s a whole focus.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: And the papers started shaking and you could see the tears. Dad couldn’t see it yet because she had the paper up. She let the paper fall to the floor and when the dad saw her crying, he started crying. She looked at me and said: “I can’t do this.” And I looked at her and I said: “But you are doing it. Just look at your dad. He brought you here. He wants to hear.” And she looked at him and said: “Daddy, I’m so proud of you. Thank you for getting help.” Well, he loses it right there. And she shares a couple more minutes. And I looked at her and said: “Is there anything else? Because when I look at your dad, he’s really looking at you.” And it’s important for the listeners to understand that we prepare both the child and the parent for this process. They’re prepared for it. And so all the dad can do is listen.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: So all he can do is listen. And I said: “Is there anything else?” And she took the index finger on her left hand and she looked and she pointed towards her dad and said: “Daddy, are you in there? Are you in there dad?” I completely understood. She was doing that separation we talked about. And he was perplexed and I looked at her and said: “It’s the last thing I’ll have you do. I want you to look at dad and tell him what you mean.” And she took a breath and she looked at, I tell you, then it was like the floodgates opened. And she said: “I want the daddy back who plays with me and kisses me and tells me I’m beautiful. I want the daddy back that doesn’t yell and scream of mommy all the time. I want the daddy back that stays home at night because you go out and I wake up and I look out and your car is not there. Then I hear sirens and I’m afraid they’re for you. That’s the Daddy I want.” And when she said those words, she leapt out of her chair. Feet never touched the floor. And they just held each other. And they both cry. They both cried.
JEFF: Oh my god! I’m crying. [laughs]
JERRY: Yeah. They needed those moments. They simply cry. And you know, we process that as a parent group. He didn’t have a whole lot to say, but I could tell it was still in progress. And at the end of the day he came up to me and he said: “There’s two things I want you to know. I’ve just gotten out of 90 days of treatment. What just happened here was the most significant thing in my recovery up to this point.”
JEFF: Oh my god!
JERRY: And he said: “Jerry, do you know what just happened? Somebody told on my disease without anger or judgment in a loving way.” And then he said –
JEFF: And it was his daughter.
JERRY: – and who holds our emotional heartstrings more than our children or our grandchildren. My goodness. Talk about important. But the second thing he said is you know what? He said: “I am so relieved to hear what she had to say. And I’m going to an AA meeting tonight. More than anything, you know, my desire to stay sober and to heal this family and to change our legacy is stronger than it’s ever been.” And that’s the promise sometimes you’ll see in the children’s program. When children are given the language and given permission and they could have that voice. And the loving parent who needs courage and strength to show up to a program like this, puts their trust in us as counselors to very gently do this. And, you know, what I know is that, and you know, that’s got to be eight or nine years ago and I know this family still in recovery and this family is grown together.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: And that dad who goes to those 12 step meetings, it’s the promises and action is just really changed so much for the better.
JEFF: Yeah. Oh! Oh my gosh! I couldn’t help crying during that story.
JERRY: Yeah, me too. But that’s the power. That’s the power because kids love their parents. And all the years I’ve done this, there’s been a few examples, but there have been a few kids have lost that love because of some really traumatic experiences they’ve been put through. But in most cases, kids love their parents and really would like to see healing take place.
JEFF: Well, I mean one of the things that I’ve seen with families with an addicted loved one, and I’ve seen this for years, is these relational patterns are invisible.
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: And it’s like they have a story from the past that they’re believing. They don’t see kind of this slow, gradual, incremental change in these relational patterns. And it’s the change in how they express their needs, how they love one another and how they like their version of doing family together.
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: What that’s about. And it’s like, boy, your description right there is so powerful and giving children an opportunity to be not only have their voice heard but to be a major pivotal change. And when that happens, it’s like there’s potential to change. Like the trickle down of addiction that goes from like in my case for my grandfather and my mother to me kind of thing.
JERRY: Sure. Yeah.
JEFF: It’s a potential for a child to change that generational pattern. And it’s like no amount of money, like how do you put a value on that?
JERRY: Priceless.
JEFF: Yeah. Like what that father came up and shared with you. I just did 90 days of treatment and this was the most powerful thing for me because you brought it home in a relational way where the heartstrings, the love kind of thing is one of the most powerful thing. So, I have so much respect for you, for the program. Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to say about the program or messages for families that we haven’t touched on?
JERRY: A couple of things. One is, let’s go back to that example. We looked at it in terms of what was going on in the middle of that circle with that dad and it’s beautiful little girl who summed up her courage and strength to tell her truth. But remember that while that process is going on, there’s a big circle of people there, parents and kids. And so as they were working, let’s not forget that there is a 43 year old mom there with her three kids who has that multigenerational, intergenerational patterns of addiction that you’ve bee and codependency that you made reference too. And so she’s sitting there and there’s no way that she doesn’t get triggered by that little girl, because that little girl shares. She begins to remember in a much more deep way what happened to her when she was a little girl. She identifies. As the little girl in the center, the rest of the program again learns that this is not her fault. That mom who’s struggling with her own addiction now also needs to learn that what happened when she was a little girl was not her fault. And she needs to begin a process of healing to really come and to put that whole message that we talked about –
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: – to sleep and to bed and to not have it interfere.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: Think about all the people who are in treatment today, I think about all the family members who were dealing with their own codependency issues who is sometimes the message they tell themselves, I’m not worthy of recovery. I don’t deserve this. I’m not good enough. And it’s those messages that we need to explore and get rid of, so people have an opportunity to really get free.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the circle process and groups are so powerful. Just for what you were saying about when someone shares deeply, other people listen, other people hear. They’re in their own process. They have their own kind of memories of what someone’s talking about. How it relates to them kind of thing. And I guess my hope is that, you know, family members that once they have those memories that they have their support system to lean into and there’s like lots of pieces of a support system.
JERRY: And that’s where you come in because you provide so many resources for families seeking help. Whether it’s through 12 step meetings like Al-Anon and Kota.
JEFF: Right.
JERRY: Or adult children meetings, whether it’s through seeing a therapist for my individual issues, but also being in a group.
JEFF: Right.
JERRY: And I see that as being crucial for family members because let’s not forget, this is a disease of isolation for family members as well. It’s a disease of silence, shame and secrecy. And there’s a power of being in a room with other people just like me.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: That allow me to connect in a way that maybe I’ve never connected before. So maybe what I can do is I can begin to trust.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: And I can begin to talk and I can begin to share my feelings and experiences.
JEFF: Well, so, what I’m reminded of there is I used to do it. There was a treatment center that I did a family group. Their whole family thing was they had an hour and a half group twice a month and that was a start. That’s better than some places that have nothing.
JERRY: Absolutely. That’s right.
JEFF: But I remember one, some grandparents that were in there. One of the things that this guy said and his granddaughter was in treatment for like the fourth or fifth time. And so he was like, wow, you know, I remember a counselor many years ago when my granddaughter was in treatment for the first or second time talking about this family component that addiction is a family disease and family recovery increases the statistics and outcomes for everyone. And I’m starting to think that maybe there’s something to that. And this was many years later she’s in treatment for like the fourth or fifth time kind of thing. And, you know, these were like upstanding people. They had a glass of wine and they were asking themselves, well, I mean I just have a glass of wine in the evening. Is that a problem? But what they did see was, do you know when my granddaughter’s over, it doesn’t make sense for me to have glass of wine. And I can abstain when my grand – I mean, so it was a step.
JERRY: Sure was.
JEFF: It was huge. And the other thing about that group that I really, really learned and it backs up what you were saying about the group process is oftentimes at the end I would ask people what are like one or two takeaways that you have? And I presented a little information, started a discussion. I thought the information was just going to be the greatest thing in the world. And classically more than half the time the takeaway was when that person across the circle, when they started talking, oh my gosh. And then after the group, they would have deep conversation, probably exchange contact. And so it’s like coming out of isolation.
JERRY: Sure it is.
JEFF: And connection and hearing, my god, I’m not the only one and you have this in your family too. It’s like I could just see like the way they held them self was different. They had a little bit of joy not to the same extreme of what you’re talking about where the kids come in and they like own this place.
JERRY: Sure. Of course, of course.
JEFF: But yeah, there’s just so much potential.
JERRY: Well, that sense of connection again and I can’t stress it enough. The older I get, the more I realize it’s that heart to heart stuff.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: While I need the information and I need the understanding, so I need that head stuff. It’s that heart stuff. It’s the sense of connection that sense of, while we’re different, our similarities in terms of how we’re interacting with this disease we’re faced with far outweigh the differences. And so how do we identify and how do we heal together? I think that’s why when we go to treatment, we go to treatment and we’re in a groups. There’s individual counseling, but groups are the primary modality when you’re in a family program. And even if it’s only two times a month and I agree with you, as long as people are doing something, I’m going to stand up and applaud them for doing that. Where am I learning? I’m learning in the group. When I go to 12 step meetings, where am I learning? I’m learning in a group, whether it’s alcoholics anonymous, narcotics anonymous, you name all the different 12 step programs. And so, it’s how we relate to each other, that’s critical and essential part of healing.
JEFF: Yeah. And so I’m like, there’s a lot of different groups, so I want people to know who are listening to this, who might be thinking I could never go to a 12 step group kind of thing. There’s other family and friends program.
JERRY: Absolutely. They’re wonderful.
JEFF: And there’s online things like, I think SMART Recovery has some short online.
JERRY: Sure. Yap.
JEFF: LifeRing may have something.
JERRY: Yap, they do.
JEFF: And I think AA has online groups as well, so I want people to know there’s like more than one pathway, at least that’s how I see this. And finding your own pathway is really important because then you make it your own. You make that path your own. And if you can’t make it, well, if you don’t, if you are not able to make it your own, then it’s always something that someone else is judging me for. It can feel that way.
JERRY: Sure. Early on in my career, there was a psychiatrist who done some recovery videos and is really well known. His name is Dr Pursch. Dr Pursch said something, yeah, sometimes Jeff you hear something and it just resonates and you hold onto. I call it a velcro message. It’s like a velcro ball that [inaudible] and you can’t shake it. And this is true, especially for family members. What Dr Pursch said, you know, it’s really easy when you get up every day, you do one of two things. You either repeat those old self-defeating painful patterns of behavior or you recover. And that could be one of those online groups, we seeing a therapist, could be reading –
JEFF: Could be all of the above.
JERRY: – could be all of the above. And so that rule of thumb everyday says we never stand still or either walking into our recovery or we’re slipping back into –
JEFF: Or we’re repeating old patterns.
JERRY: Yeah, exactly.
JEFF: I love what you were saying about like when I first get up in the morning because that is –
JERRY: What am I going to do? What’s my plan today?
JEFF: – that is such a powerful time. I mean, there’s like what is it? The Miracle Morning for Addiction and Recovery, how Elrod wrote that book, but it’s like there’s a lot of great suggestions in there to change old patterns, old beliefs systems. It’s framed for addiction and recovery. But in my mind it applies to family members, it applies to a lot of people.
JERRY: Sure.
JEFF: All of us. I mean, I want to say all of us
JERRY: It does. It’s part of the human condition. Everybody has challenges that they face everyday. And those challenges can be incredible growth opportunities if looked upon that way or they could be challenges that consume and overwhelm us. And so the power of the group, even if it’s an online group, you know what? I do much better when I know I have a team of people who understand and can help guide me and that we could celebrate our recovery. So that’s key as well.
JEFF: Yeah. Oh my God. Wow. Well, I just have a lot of appreciation, a lot of joy, you know, and yeah.
JERRY: Well, thank you so much for this opportunity. I have such great respect Jeff for what you’re doing. It’s an essential part of the solution.
JEFF: Yeah.
JERRY: And we can never have enough solutions when it comes to our healing and recovery.
JEFF: Thank you. And so, do you want to let people know how they can get hold of Hazelden Betty Ford Children Program? I mean, you can google it, but.
JERRY: You can google it, Colorado Children’s program. Our offices are in Aurora. We do two or three programs every month off the top of my head. I’m reluctant to give the number right now because with my left this morning I’m going to give the wrong number, so let me do something different. If you’d like more information or would like to talk to me, I’m going to give you the direct line to my office and I’d love to visit with you or if I can ever be a resource and follow up on the great work that Jeff is doing. So that number is 7607734103. And I’ll give it to you one more time 7607734103. On this beautiful late January morning in Colorado Springs where it is snowing outside. That’s the one number I can guarantee you is correct.
JEFF: Alright. Thank you very much Jerry. I appreciate it.
JERRY: Your welcome.