65: Dr. Robert Schwebel, Author of “Leap of Power” Provides Evidence that People are Strong and Capable to Take Control of Alcohol and Drugs.
“There’s no such thing as drug treatment. What we really need is holistic counselling that incorporates work on the drug issue.” – Robert Schwebel
As individuals begin to see that they have addiction issues, they begin to think about change. But to go from contemplating about it to actually taking action is no piece of cake. Dr. Robert Schwebel expands on why people use drugs and why they hesitate on taking that first step towards recovery. He also shares about his Seven Challenges Program, which is used worldwide in motivating individuals to evaluate their lives, consider changes that they want to make, and take steps to implement those changes. But for transformation and recovery to really take place, people need to believe that their life could be better and get in touch with what truly matters to them. Join in to today’s podcast and discover how you can grab hold of that change and make it into a reality.
Highlights:
04:30 The Spark of Interest
11:16 Feeling Powerless
17:44 Being Honest to Ourselves
26:25 Looking at What You Like About Drugs
29:00 Think About the Harm
31:00 Stop the Shame and Blame
33:00 Looking to the Future
40:07 What Will You Do?
Resources:
Book
Leap of Power: Control of Alcohol, Drugs and Your Life by Dr. Robert Schwebel
Challenges! Challenges! Challenges! Life is full of challenges! Join this conversation with @TFRSolution and Dr. Robert Schwebel in discussing about The Seven Challenges in making life ones better. #understanding #honesty #shame #respect… Share on X
Quotes:
“ No judgement; no put downs. In the end only you, and you alone can make your own decisions about what you want to do with regard to drugs.” – Robert Schwebel
“ I think we need to stop bombarding people about the harm. Back-off and give them air to breathe…ask them in non-pushy way.” – Robert Schwebel
“We got to have hope because if you don’t have hope for a better future, why stop using drugs?” – Robert Schwebel
“We want to support people to change their drug use behavior and to have a great life.” – Robert Schwebel
“ I think therapy can accelerate someone change process.” – Jeff Jones
“People are a lot more committed to decisions that they made themselves compared to decisions that they felt were imposed upon them.” – Robert Schwebel
“Keep the communication door open. Talk with respect to family members…”– Robert Schwebel
“There’s no such thing as drug treatment. What we really need is holistic counselling that incorporates work on the drug issue.” – Robert Schwebel
About Robert
Dr. Robert Schwebel is a Clinical Psychologist who specializes in couple and family therapy and substance abuse treatment. He uses psychological research, science and holistic approach that addresses substance abuse in his practice. He believes that counselling must be developmentally appropriate. He developed Seven Challenges, a comprehensive program designed to motivate individuals who struggle with addiction. His program is being used worldwide in a wide array of settings. He has also published numerous articles and authored several books that discuss some of the emerging issues on addiction. Dr. Schwebel believes in the power of hope. Without it, there’s no reason for doing anything good, whether for oneself or for others. His mission is more than using his expertise to help individuals transform but to give them a reason, a solid foundation for doing so.
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions:
Jeff Jones: So welcome everyone. This is Jeff Jones on the podcast, Families Navigating Addiction And Recovery. And I am here today with a gentleman who I just met maybe four or five days ago. And I’m very excited to have this conversation and learn more about his contribution in the drug and alcohol world. And I am referring to Dr. Robert Schwebel. He’s a clinical psychologist who has developed a program called The Seven Challenges, and that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. It’s a comprehensive program that’s designed to motivate individuals who’ve struggled with alcohol and drug problems. And from what I understand here, he has an adolescent version and an adult version specifically for these different individuals to evaluate their lives, consider changes that they want to make, and then take steps to implement those changes. And it supports the individual in taking power over their own lives. So he wrote a book and the book is coming out November 1st, and he sent me an early copy, so I’ve had several days to scan through it. I’m very excited to have this conversation with Dr. Schwebel. And so, he has done a whole lot here, and he has been from a media standpoint on Oprah, the TODAY Show, The CBS Early Show, CNN, et cetera, et cetera. So the name of his book, his latest book, and I think he’s written, this is his fourth, is called Leap of Power: Take Control of Alcohol, Drugs and Your Life. So welcome Robert.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Thank you. And it’s very nice to be here with you.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you very much. And if we could start with you just sharing a little bit more about who you are, so you know, people listening have a good idea as to who they’re listening to.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Great. Well I can tell you that I’m a clinical psychologist and back a long time ago in 1970 when I was in graduate school, my first year, I wasn’t too excited about the field. I really was uncertain whether I wanted to do, pursue a career in this field. But the interesting thing was after my first year in graduate school, I took a class at what was called the free university. And that was a place where anyone who wanted to teach a class could teach a class, and anyone who wanted to take a class could take a class.
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: And I took a class taught by Claude Steiner, who wrote a couple of books. One was Healing Alcoholism, and another called Games Alcoholics Play, which is how I essentially how I got into the field. I became friends with him, I actually worked with him. We said we worked with a group that in those days was called Radical Therapy. And we set up free drop in centers in Berkeley, and in San Francisco. I was living in Berkeley, I was at the University of California, and he kept sending me referrals as we got to know each other better. And I began working with clients who had problems with alcohol and other drugs. And one of the first things I noticed was that working with these clients was really no different than working with all the other clients that I was beginning to work with. And that surprised me because it didn’t fit sort of the dominant idea of the time.
Jeff Jones: Aha, wow. That sounds very key that you noticed something. And so these are my words, it sounds like you saw the client that drug and alcohol struggling kind of client as a human as opposed to, you know, some of the language and labels that are put on these people.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes, exactly, Jeff. I think I was very lucky because I started without all the baggage of the dominant view of people with drug problems. There was so much moralizing, and judgmentalness, and put downs, and whatnot, and I didn’t start with that. I got into the field without that baggage, and you know, you know that baggage included seeing people as powerless over drugs and that’s not how I see it.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: That baggage included sort of the idea that you could have drug treatment separate and apart from counseling in general because it was clear to me that people drug use and everyday living are completely intertwined. People use drugs in response to what’s going on in their lives and when they begin to use drugs, it can begin to affect what’s going on in their lives. So in my view, there’s like really, I almost say there’s no such thing as drug treatment. What we really need is holistic counseling that incorporates work on the drug issue.
“There’s no such thing as drug treatment. What we really need is holistic counselling that incorporates work on the drug issue.” - Robert Schwebel Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah, wow. I just love the way you said that. And, you know, that you came to this with minimal baggage and the baggage that, like, for people who end up going to a treatment center or they get into this field, and there’s a lot of people in this field who they have their own drug and alcohol problems and they’ve been to a treatment center, or many of them, or something. And yeah, the history in our culture about addiction is very shaming and blaming of the individual and the family.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. Both.
Jeff Jones: What I am really struck with with your book is how, you don’t really talk about the cultural language, but you just go right for, Hey, people have power here and let’s focus on that. And that’s the name of the book, Leap Of Power. So I’m really excited to hear more about how this evolved for you. And I really get that you started getting these referrals and seeing that these clients were just like many of your other clients, and they had drugs and alcohol. I’m assuming, I mean, as a way to cope or something. How would you say it?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. I mean one of the first things I noticed was that, I found that it would be possible to explain an individual’s use of drugs, even at problematic levels without any negative judgements. If you listen to them, if people are given an opportunity to talk about their life experiences, you can understand why people are using drugs and why they’re using it to the extent that they’re using it. That just became really clear to me, and I saw no reason to jump to a conclusion that people would be powerless over about doing anything about it. Then in fact, it was clear to me that drug use like any other really bad habit or any other really problematic behavior that people have the power within themselves to take control. Now, I’m not saying it’s easy.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: You know, I’m not naive here but, you know, it was clear to me that we could understand why people were using drugs and that we should stop giving them the message that they’re powerless over drugs.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Jeff, I probably should add that, certainly there are people who would come up to me and I’ve had this over the years who say: “Well, I’m powerless.” When I say powerless, I mean, “Once I have that first drink I can’t stop.” Well, my answer to that is: “Well, you have the power not to take that first drink.” Ultimately we have it within ourselves to take control of our drug use.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah. What I love, what you’re talking about is just, you know, what I know about my own thinking process and just how powerful what I think is if, you know, and I forget the cliche statement, but it’s something like if I think something’s going to be hard, it’s hard. If I think I can do it and I can get through this, I can get through this and it’s like what I tell myself has a big influence on my brain chemistry.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes, huge, huge. It’s really become this self fulfilling prophecy people are told that they’re powerless and then they go and they get counseling where they don’t deal with any of the underlying issues. So they’re told they’re powerless, they get counseling that really only covers part of what they need. They’re not prepared to change their drug use behavior. They try to change because they want the harm to go away, but they’re not prepared so they fail, and then people say, you see, just like we told you, you’re powerless.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: That’s horrible, I mean, when people are feeling weak and vulnerable, the last thing they need is for somebody to come in and say to them: “You know what? You’re powerless and there’s nothing you can do about that.
Jeff Jones: Right, right. Wow. And I really see that message as refreshing and I also see where, in the heat of crisis it can be incredibly difficult to stay aligned with that message.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. And I think it’s really important, Jeff, that we say: “You may have heard that you’re powerless and you may even feel powerless.” That’s really important. People aren’t making it up when they say they feel powerless. They truly feel that way.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: A leap of power really means believing that somewhere within yourself, you have the wherewithal to transcend that feeling. So absolutely, people feel it, but it’s not true. You know, it’s like when people are depressed and they feel like they can’t get out of bed. Well, the truth is if you want to get over depression, you need to get out of bed and people are capable of doing it. They feel like they can’t, they’ve been told that they can’t, but they can.
Jeff Jones: So I’m kind of getting here that this message that you’re bringing it forward for the individual. It’s like on some level you hold out the hope, you know, that there is power in them and they just haven’t connected with it, or founded, or you know, but it’s like in the model that you have and the work that you’re doing that you’ve shared with so many other people, it’s like the therapist’s role, or maybe the guide’s role, or coach role, or I don’t know, maybe even an attuned family members–
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes.
Jeff Jones: –is to hold that container of, Hey, you are a powerful person. This addiction has come in and is like got you by the throat or whatever. And also in reading some of your stuff, it’s like the core of your book, Leap Of Power is these, The Seven Challenges, which is all around the country.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. Actually we’re in four or 500 different agencies and organizations across the country. It’s in, we’re in 40 different States. We don’t operate, I don’t operate that. We train people and we follow up with the training, and we monitor the programs, and we support people so that they can be successful with the program. And yes, going, in fact, going back to what you said about leaving, people have it within themselves. I think as individuals begin to look at their lives and begin to see that they have problems with drugs according to the research that many of us are familiar with about stages of change, they begin to think about changing. But to go from thinking about it, contemplating change, to actually taking action, people have to believe that their life could be better. So part of what family members, counselors, people who care can do is to help inspire optimism. A sense that things could be better.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: And that’s part of why addressing that issue of powerlessness is so important and helping people get back in touch with what matters to them? What really is important? What do they value? What are their connections? The relationships? And that can include family relationships. What are their values? What would they like to accomplish? Where they want to go in life? That’s, you know, according to the Seven Challenges, that’s challenged five which has to do with thinking about the future.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So much like the conversation that we had previously before this, and you know, maybe some of the book or some of the stuff I’ve learned about you online, it’s like, I really am so touched with how well I see this as unique, different, and a fresh approach, and it’s a fresh like addiction, the person with the addiction, they have plenty of shame, there’s plenty of negative self talk. And one of the ways that they mitigate that or quiet that is to numb it out to drugs or alcohol. But if the people around them are not reinforcing the shame, but instead, you know, focusing on this container of hope and initiating a reflecting back where they have power, I dunno, it’s a very big deal. And it’s like this program, you’ve been doing this for a while, it’s all over the country, and I think you said three other countries or something?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yeah. It’s also in Canada and in Germany. It’s just starting in Germany right now.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So do you want to go into The Seven Challenges? And should we kind of go into the meat of it? Or was there more you wanted to say about the framing and periphery before we jump into the meat?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: No, I think we covered that and I’d be happy to talk about The Seven Challenges. Yeah, sure, okay.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So how do we jump into The Seven Challenges?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Right. Well I guess I’ll start with the adult version first cause we’re, you know, we were talking about Leap Of Power, there’s just different wording, they’re both based on the same principles. And the idea of the program is to support people in decision making and then to follow through successfully with their decisions. So if it’s referring to Leap Of Power, we’re talking, it’s a self help book really. We are using the book with our adult version of the program, but I deliberately wrote it to make it available for the public so people can do that without having to rely on our program. So it is self help, and with self-help, it’s about sort of, how do we go beyond making new year’s resolutions? Every new year’s eve, you know, we’re all going to lose 30 pounds and start exercising every day. And I think the same thing can happen in terms of drug decisions. And so challenge one is really about being honest to yourself, about having what I call a challenging voice that says, are you really willing to look at this? Are you really willing to look at what you like about drugs, and how much you like what you like? And are you going to acknowledge all the harm? And when it comes to making changes, are you going to commit to working hard at that? Or are you going to give up at the first time? There’s a setback or something. So challenge one is about really getting buy in. And I mean I actually opened the book and it’s the same principles in our program where we’re really clear there’s going to be no judgment, there’s going to be no put downs in the end, only you and you alone can make your own decisions about what you want to do with regard to drugs. And we’re also very clear in the program and in Leap Of Power that there’s more than one option. I mean, historically think, people think there’s only one option, which is immediate abstinence.
“ No judgement; no put downs. In the end only you, and you alone can make your own decisions about what you want to do with regard to drugs.” - Robert Schwebel Share on XJeff Jones: Aha.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Well, people can decide to set new limits and adhere to their own limits. People can also decide that they might even use the same amounts of a particular drug, for example, but continue to drink alcohol, but they’ll never drink before they drive. I mean, people can make a variety of decisions and we don’t want to send people away and say, “No, there’s only one way and this is the way. And if you’re not there at that moment, if you’re not willing to commit to abstinence at this moment, we don’t want to talk with you.”
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: That’s just not right and there are other options as well.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: So that’s how it starts. That’s challenged one, that’s the first challenge.
Jeff Jones: So can I respond to that before you go on?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Sure.
Jeff Jones: So one thing that I really love about what you’re saying here Robert, is it reminds me of a diagram that I saw, you know, years ago, and it was like three different levels of drinking and it was about alcohol. And so if you could picture like a triangle, and there’s three different categories, and the very top one I think said like 4% or something like that. And those, from this research, or study, or whatever was what was considered people who were addicted. And then below that was 26% were like high risk drinkers. And then below that were, you know, people who didn’t rank or had minimal risks. And you know, it’s like so much of the focus has been on that 4%. And there, it seems like there has been so few tools for that gradual incremental progression that takes place in that 26% of high risk drinking. And I love that you made this accessible to the general public because it’s like, this is a book that someone could pick up and they could start going through this themself and evaluating their decisions way before, you know, crisis kind of thing, way before huge problems. So, yeah, that’s what I’m struck with first. And like when there’s only one solution, that solution of abstinence, it’s like, then one of the biggest challenges is, and I kind of frame this as the addicted brain, kind of, you know, coming up with a message, I can do this myself kind of thing. And they’re essentially trying to protect themselves because they feel judged over and over. They feel judged by the people around them, someone in the family perhaps bringing attention to, hey, this situation may be getting a little out of hand.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. I think a lot of people say: “I can do it myself.” Because they expect, well, if I go to a treatment center, they’re gonna judge me. And who wants to go and be judged and told there’s only one way to do it. And you’ve got to follow this program and this program alone. And I think one of the takeaways for all of us is that it’s so important to get away from that judgmentalness and put down individuals with drug problems. You also mentioned, by the way that, you know, the 4% with actual addiction problems, it’s interesting. Programs are often called addiction programs and in those same programs, there are a lot of people who are not addicted. And it’s an important distinction to make. And it’s also sometimes people come in and they know darn well they’re not addicted, but they may have a problem with a particular drug, and they start being told that they’re addicted and they think these people don’t get it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: So there’s so many issues there, including reaching people early. You know, if you think about it, someone comes into counseling program and they’re said, they’re told: “You know, you have to commit to abstinence.: And they’re not willing at that moment to commit to abstinence. And they’re told: “Okay, come crawling back once you hit rock bottom.” That’s a terrible thing to say. You know, if people come in and they’re not ready to, or don’t want to commit to abstinence, why don’t we talk with them? Why don’t we treat them with a little respect and say, well, tell us about your drug use. I would like to try to understand you and as we have this discussion I would hope you gain greater self understanding, and let’s figure it out together, and let’s start where you are at, instead of saying no, no, we got to place you into our program, instead lets us wrap our program around the people in their own particular needs.
Jeff Jones: I love what you’re saying specifically about this kind of, you know, what I was framing as the 26% of like high risk problematic kind of, yeah. And I want to say that there are people who are addicted and know it’s like abstinence is a helpful thing for them.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yeah. I think abstinence, you know, if you’re, as a drug counselor, someone comes in and says they want to be abstinent, boy I, you know, I smile and say that if they’ve really committed to that and say: “Well that will solve that problem for sure.” I’m not anti abstinence. What I think is a problem is when people say this is the only solution and that it has to be immediate. So if you’re not willing to do it now, we don’t want to talk with you.
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: And abstinence is one really good option, but it’s also true and I think it’s been mystified that there are many, many people who have very serious drug problems who end up using one drug or another in moderation. And I think we have to be honest about that.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for going with me as I interrupt you on, you know, number one here of–
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Well, you make it very interesting.
Jeff Jones: (laughs) And then, so number one flows into number two.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yeah. And number two is I think, the one that listeners will probably find most interesting. Challenge two is about looking at what you like about drugs, and why you’re using them. And you know, at first when people first hear that they think: “Oh no, are you encouraging drug use? Are you enabling it?” And I say: “Absolutely not. We’re trying to help understand why they’re doing what they’re doing.”
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: “What benefits they’re getting from drugs. They’re not using drugs for no reason. They’re using it for some particular reason, whether it’s had pleasure to their life? Or to cope with stress.” So we really have been quite the opposite of mainstream programs. Mainstream drug programs focus heavily on the harm, they bombard people with all the harm and the dangers from drugs. And the funny thing about that is, people have heard that over, and over, and over again, it’s just beating a dead horse. And from the counseling point of view, really the most interesting question is, okay, you know about the harm, you may even be well aware of the harm that drugs have caused in your own life. What is it that you’ve liked so much that is so compelling about drugs that you keep coming back for more despite the harm? Let’s help people with challenge to find out what needs they’re satisfying and gain greater understanding about what’s going on in their lives. They’ll better understand why they’re using drugs, and ultimately if they ever want to make changes, they don’t understand what needs they have to learn to satisfy in other ways. If they want to either reduce their drug use or quit using drugs. So it’s the exact opposite of the mainstream approach. It opens the windows to really self understanding about drugs.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah. Just this number two here, it reminds me, and it seems like it’s in alignment with one of my, a person. I consider it an addiction mentor. Dr. Gabor Maté, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, I love what you’re saying there and I’ll try to be interrupting less as you go through this.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Okay. You want me to keep rolling here? We’re not going to be on all night, we didn’t us listeners just to bring their pajamas along with them.
Jeff Jones: (laughs) Which I’m getting that you could talk about this for quite a while, which is great.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: I’m afraid I could. Let me move on then to challenge three.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Challenge three is looking at the harm from drugs, harm that has happened or could happen. And as I said before, for the most part, people know about the harm. But you know, we do want to make sure in that challenging voice that I mentioned in the beginning is really gonna, you know, going to ask us, you know, really examined closely, really think about the harm, think about what has already happened in your life, and also think about what might not have happened but could happen if you’re, for example engaging in high risk behavior, driving under the influence.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Or having sex under the influence where you could have an unwanted pregnancy, or transmit, or catch a sexually transmitted disease. So you know, it’s really getting people to think about the harm. And for the most part, you know, my word of caution to families because I know your podcast is highly directed to families. I think we need to stop bombarding people about the harm, back off and give them a little air to breathe. Start by asking family members what they like about drugs and then, you know, in a non pushy way, I think we get very pushy about the harm. Say, do you have any concerns? What are your concerns?
“ I think we need to stop bombarding people about the harm. Back-off and give them air to breathe...ask them in non-pushy way.” - Robert Schwebel Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: And I think the best way to get people to accept the harm is for us to stop bombarding them with it. Cause you know, it’s sort of a natural thing when you get bombarded with harm, people push back, you get pushed against a wall, you push back. So, but it is an important part of decision making, people are weighing the benefits versus the harm. That’s how they make decisions about drugs. So it is important to consider challenge three.
Jeff Jones: Great.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: I go on a challenge four. Challenge four is about shared responsibility, it’s helping people take a look at what is their own responsibility and what is the responsibility of others for their problems. And this is the challenge I cherish is very important because I think in our culture what we do is we blame people as we’ve been talking about, put them down for having drug use. And what we really need to do is help them open their eyes and take a look at the conditions of their lives. If they closely look at the conditions of their lives, they will, as I said earlier, be able to explain their drug use without passing negative judgments about themselves. So challenge four is REALLY designed to reduce excessive self blame. Now, you know, it’s looking at our responsibility and the responsibility of others. We still do carry responsibility and when people begin to have serious drug problems, their behavior has a negative impact on other people and we have to take responsibility for that. But my biggest point with challenge four is we’ve got to do something about this excessive self blame and shame.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, I mean one of the things that I’m hearing with this point that I’m, you know, that I really appreciate is acknowledging a both end perspective. This is important to look at, and this over here is important to look at too. And one of the ways I think about this and talk about this is, you know, all the contributing factors in our culture that encourage, or support, or enable addiction to happen, or problematic use.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. Yeah. We’re in a consumer oriented society. You know, we’re told, feel good, you should always feel good and if you’re feeling bad, eat this,buy that, drink this, inject that. Somehow, the message is that we should always feel good. And that is part of the context of how, you know, it’s within this context that people develop drug problems.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: You know, I think there’s a looming sense, you know, with younger generations too about what are the prospects for the future. Actually, that kind of gets into challenge five, which I probably should continue with. Challenge five is looking to the future. And sort of the negative view of challenge five is, if I keep doing what I’m doing, where am I headed? And people may discover that they’re headed toward serious, serious life problems, life issues. On the other hand, they looking to the future. This is where we need to inspire people with hope, with optimism about having a better future. And I have to add, and this is kind of the transition I made from challenge four things that are not our responsibility. It’s sometimes very hard for this younger generation to feel a sense of hope about the future. You know, we have this tremendous disparity in wealth. We have people who are feeling what, you know, what jobs are going to be available to me? What are the possibility? How am I going to support a family? Or how will we manage? So there are a lot of conditions that are extrinsic to us that we did not cause ourselves, but yet, you know, we do have to take enough responsibility that somehow we want to transcend that and be able to visualize a future, and be able to have hope for the future. So challenge five is really about trying to inspire hope, knowing full well that, you know, it’s not a level playing field. Some people simply have more opportunity than others, but whatever hand you’re dealt, we’ve got to do our best and we’ve got to have hope that something’s going to be better because I’m telling you, if you don’t have hope about a better future, why stop using drugs?
“We got to have hope because if you don’t have hope for a better future, why stop using drugs?” - Robert Schwebel Share on XJeff Jones: Right, yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: They give you immediate relief. They give you pleasure right now and if you can’t see something better, why would you do the hard, difficult work of trying to set new limits or quit.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my gosh. And the question here about, you know, the future, where am I headed? I just like, just in my own kind of conversations in sessions with clients is like, so oftentimes, that’s such a hard question and that’s not even a question they think about, or a lot of times they even care about.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes.
Jeff Jones: So for someone outside of them to kind of hold that question for them and on some regular basis, be kind of running it in front of them to consider. Probably a lot of listeners have heard about the parts of our brain and one part of our brain is sort of, you know, it’s primitive, primitive from evolution. If there’s fruit, you know, if you’re roaming the world looking for food sources in ancient times, prehistoric times, and you see a fruit hanging on a tree, you eat it. You know, our brain is conditioned to satisfy our impulses immediately. If there’s a meat source, you go for it. Well, you know, we have now the prefrontal cortex which says, wait, let’s stop and think, let’s think about how this will affect me in the future. And we really want to tap into that and counselors, family members want to help our loved ones, or our clients pay attention and think about what they want in the future.
Jeff Jones: So this challenge five really, it sounds like starts to initiate blood flow to the prefrontal cortex, ideally.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Great way to put it.
Jeff Jones: Engage more kind of an individual’s curiosity and really wondering about, Hmm, what would that look like for me? And like, this guy I’m talking to, he seems to think that there’s hope or that there’s a future for me, and I don’t feel it quite yet.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: That can mean a lot to hear that.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. And I mean, through a lot of these I can see where family members that have relationships with, you know, people who are in some problematic stage with this sad family members, you know, can, there’s roles, positive roles for them to play.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, in Leap Of Power, just to back up to the book a little bit because we’re talking about addiction and lesser types of drug problems. In chapter one, you know, about being honest to yourself. I do say to people who, for example, might be addicted, skip ahead to challenge seven. If you know right now you want to quit or set new limits, skip ahead to chapter seven, which coincides with challenge seven by the way, and you’ll find lots and lots of support about how to successfully change problematic drug use behavior. But I add, also come back and read the earlier challenges in the earlier chapters because chapters seven is how you kind of white knuckle it. You know, you get through it, support to just supporting your willpower, but if you really want to sustain long term change, you have to back up and lay as stronger foundation, you know, figure out what needs you were meeting through drugs, figure out other ways to meet those needs. That’s chapter two, right?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Make sure you really aware of all the harm, that’s chapter three. Chapter four, you know, stop the shame and blame, if you have a setback, don’t put yourself down. Challenge five, thinking of the future, you NEED, you have to hold up that inspiration about a better life if you’re going to sustain change. So even for people who know right off the bat what they want to do, and even though we call this decision making process, it also could be called a process of laying a foundation for long term success. It’s not simply a matter of saying, I’m going to stop, and it’s all about willpower because, you know, you can stop using drugs and still have a miserable life. The reason you start using it in the first place is to deal with what’s going on in your life.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: So we want to support people to change their drug use behavior and to have a great life.
“We want to support people to change their drug use behavior and to have a great life.” - Robert Schwebel Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah, beautiful. Beautiful. So after five, six, where do we go there?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Six is about making decisions and informed decisions about your life and about your drug use. And we stick to that sort of holistic principle that you can’t make decisions to change your drug use behavior and sustain them unless you also make decisions about the changes you want to make in your life. For example, if you’re using drugs to fall asleep at night, you’re going to have to figure out what’s causing the insomnia, is it anxiety? And do something about the anxiety. If you’re using drugs to manage anger, you’re going to have to solve some of the problems that are causing you to be anger or learn some anger management skills. So we say with challenge six, that’s where you make decisions, not only about drugs, but about your life in ways you want to make changes in your whole life.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Wow. I’m really getting the flavor of the empowering aspect of this process, you know, and it leading to inform decision making.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes.
Jeff Jones: And it’s, like, they’ve gone through a process where they have enough information and criteria for them personally to be able to make the best decisions for them personally.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. And you know, Jeff, it’s interesting, one of the things we say, we don’t tell people you have to be abstinent, but a lot of people decide. In fact, there was a research study and our program had more days of abstinence than a program that called itself abstinence based, that’s a whole nother matter.
Jeff Jones: Well, it was the informed decision making, you know, and that once up really goes through this process that they will be empowered, you know, and empowered to make decisions that are theirs, not I’m doing this because if I don’t, you know, then I’m going to suffer this consequence, or I’m doing this because this other person is telling me this is the best thing for me to do. It’s like I’m doing this because I went through a process, I have understanding, and I get what’s going on in my life, how my use of drugs or alcohol, how it’s been helping me and like what other coping mechanisms or skills I need to adopt, implement, utilize, embrace, whatever, you know, for me to have a different kind of life.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. People are a lot more committed to decisions that they made themselves compared to decisions that they felt were imposed upon them.
“People are a lot more committed to decisions that they made themselves compared to decisions that they felt were imposed upon them.” - Robert Schwebel Share on XJeff Jones: Ah, yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: And they’re just going to stick with it more. And as you said, there’s just a more solid foundation for those decisions.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, like when I got the book and I skimmed it, I spent a fair amount of time at the beginning and I spent a fair amount of time with chapter seven. And chapter seven, oh my gosh, Robert. I mean, a ton of substance. So people who are listening to this, you know, this book has a lot of What I would call substance, you know, real practical information. The other thing that I really love about it is you really go into the self talk quite a bit.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes.
Jeff Jones: And help people navigate and manage self talk, and we all have self talk whether we drink alcohol, whether we don’t, whether we have a problem with alcohol, or whether alcohol has gotten to a stage of addiction, self-talk exists.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. And I like to differentiate between nurturing self-talk that helps you succeed, that believes in you, that sees you in the most positive light possible. And oppressive self talk that puts you down, calls you a druggie and alcoholic, when you have a setback says, see you’re a failure. You know nurturing self-talk, you have a setback, it’s to say, Jay, I had a setback here, let me figure out what happened. I need to figure it out because I want to be successful.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: And it’s accepting of us, and loving towards us, and family members can be nurturing self-talk toward their family. Now that self-talk doesn’t mean, yeah, it’s not all mushy, mushy, everything’s fine and wonderful. You can in a nurturing way, say I’m concerned about your drug use. Doesn’t be a caring statement, it doesn’t have to be a put down. But yeah, it is important that we want to support people in developing self-talk that helps them in a positive way. And of course, you were talking about chapter seven, some of the self talk in chapter seven can be very tricky. Like, Oh, you’ve done so well, you haven’t used drugs in three weeks. You deserve a reward, go have a drink. Or you know, nurturing self talk. It’s like on a diet it says, I had water and a salad, now I’m going to have dessert (laughs), that throws off a diet. I mean, and you know, so talk can be tricky too in some ways saying, Oh, you deserve it. It sounds like that’s sweet and loving, but it’s really can be oppressive self talk in disguise, trying to get you to break your own decisions and go beyond the limits you set for yourself. So self-talk can be tricky, but we need to figure out how to develop nurturing self-talk that supports us in being successful.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. And you know, just in listening to you, and actually when I was reading some of this, one of the things that struck me is that, you know, when a person goes through this process, they become more and more aware of what’s going on inside of them around this drugs, or alcohol problem, crisis addiction, what is this kind of thing. But they go through this learning process for themselves and almost, it’s almost like negative self talk can be like a red flag or a warning. Like, Whoa, you know, hey, I should step back and I don’t want to go down that road. And if I go down that road, that may not lead me to where I really want to be.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes. One of the things about oppressive self-talk though that is, it’s sometimes very hard to recognize, you know, people go through life delivering these horrible messages to themselves and well, just for an example, you can’t control your drinking. You know, they’re saying that to themselves over and over and over again, and they think that’s reality. I mean, we sometimes get confused with, and sometimes need help and support from others and learning to identify, you know, exactly what is negative self talk,
Jeff Jones: Right. So challenge seven is can you, I jumped into it by top of the pieces of it, but what is the overarching name of that chapter.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Seven challenges about following through successfully with the decisions that you made.
Jeff Jones: Okay.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Challenging yourself to follow through successfully with your decisions about your life and about your drug use. And it accepts the fact that we make decisions to change and we don’t always succeed the first time, and we have setbacks along the way, but what are some of the tools? It’s filled with practical tools that people can apply in trying to change behavior.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: I introduced what I call KARMA. K stands for – know your triggers, A- avoid the triggers you can avoid – R is how to – resist and there’s a long section about how to resist triggers when you’re attempted, you know, for example, there’s something called urge surfing that I didn’t invent, but it’s a, it’s a great concept, when you have urges, one of the things you realize is they ebb and flow like a wave in the ocean and you can write it out and feel this huge urge to use drugs, you can wait it out and it will pass. Another way to resist urges is to start telling yourself, you know what, I do feel bad. And you know what, that’s okay. I can deal with feeling bad. And in our culture we’re supposed to always feel good.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: You know, I could go self-medicate myself, or I can accept the fact that this moment I feel bad and that’s part of life. And you know, so there are many things about how to answer the oppressive self talk that says, you know, it’s like, oh I’ll go ahead and do this today and tomorrow I’ll be different. We all have these ideas that somehow our tomorrow self is going to be better than today’s self, I’m afraid we’re not the same old person the next day. So anyway, the R in karma resist. The M in karma stands for – monitor, you have to monitor and Watch, you’ve made a decision to your drug use behavior, you’ve got to monitor yourself carefully day by day. And A in karma is to hold yourself – accountable, you know, if you had a slip, catch it, figure out what happened and get back on track again.
Jeff Jones: So let me ask you a question. Is it feasible for someone to hear this podcast or learn about your book, however they learn about your book, to get this book and to be able to start better navigating this by themselves without going to a treatment center, without going to a counselor, without going to an IOP or any of the, you know, normal kinds of things. What’s your experience with that?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Well, I wouldn’t in any way want to discourage anyone for going and getting any help they can get from counseling, not in the least, I don’t want to do that at all. And I think this, you know, the book can be a good support for someone who is in counseling, so I don’t want to discourage anyone from that. I really think that we should also know that most people overcome drug problems on their own.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: It is really how most people do it. Now. I’m not full of myself, I’m not going to say my book will do it for you, but I do have to, people should recognize that there is something that goes on that there’s called, you know, natural recovery, people eventually overcome drug problems.
Jeff Jones: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Beautiful. That’s kind of where I was going with my comment of, you know, so it seems like the book is designed to be a companion to counseling optimally, ideally. And I can really see where it can really accelerate someone’s possibly for some people, I mean, I’m a therapist, so I’m going to say the same thing, you know?
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Right.
Jeff Jones: I think therapy can accelerate someone’s change process.
“ I think therapy can accelerate someone change process.” - Jeff Jones Share on XDr. Robert Schwebel: Absolutely.
Jeff Jones: And the way you’ve written this book, you know, people can buy your book and they can start to do some things themselves and they, you know, the accountability piece of it that you mentioned, it’s like having someone outside of themselves. And like you mentioned, natural recovery and I totally get that, so there’s a lot of different approaches and really what I love about your book, well a lot of things, but it’s so inviting, language wise, and there’s so much potential, and there’s so many people like in that example of the 26% that I was talking about earlier where the risk is starting to get higher and higher, and there’s very few interventions that people have and a lot of our, like old school thinking process about talking to someone who is starting to have some problems or we observed they’re having problems, it can be shaming, and this book is not that way. And I just like, I can tell that you’ve been doing this for quite some time and my guess is that you’ve run up against the kind of old school thinking time and again, and you have what I’m hearing is a really solid program. One question that I wanted to ask Robert, is about have any universities picked this up for like an outcome study, or anything, research.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: We actually spread on the basis of research. I started the program in Tucson with, no grandiose ideas of having a national program. I just was asked to develop this program and at the time I thought, you know, I’ll find one, take it off the shelf and bring it into this treatment center where they want an a program. Well, I looked around and they were basically all watered down 12 steps for adolescence, it was originally just for adolescents. So that was back in 1990, and I was very disappointed when I, what I saw when I looked around the country to see what was being offered to adolescents. And apparently the center for substance abuse treatment in Washington DC was also unhappy. So they put out a request for proposal for exemplary programs that they would study. And I didn’t know about that request for proposal, we never got any grant money, unfortunately. But we were rolled in as the comparison group in a national study because they came to Tucson to look at another program. They heard about us and we had outstanding outcomes particularly mental health improvements, very substantial drug improvements. And so what happened was the center for substance abuse treatment, which is part of SAMHSA, the national, you know, part of the government in DC, they started talking about our program because we had such great outcomes. And so, we were involved in that study, and there been several studies since then. In fact, we had this great study that I mentioned to you about the, the adult program where we had more days of abstinence than an abstinence based program. And then there was another finding that it was in a drug court and we had less recidivism and the other program had more recidivism, it was not a lightweight program, it was cognitive behavioral therapy. And a lot of times in research they pick a lightweight program to compare you to so you’ll look better. But this was not that, so we do have a research validation and, you know, an evidence base for the program.
Jeff Jones: Very, very cool. You know, I could keep talking, and talking, and talking and I’m aware looking at the clock that I need to bring this to a close. Is there something that you wanted to say or share specifically, you know, knowing that families are going to be the main audience here, is there anything that you wanted to say that we haven’t touched on or I haven’t asked about.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Well, I think this has been a very comprehensive interview, thank you. And before people drag us off with a cane, I mean I guess the main thing I would say to families is to keep the door open. Do everything you can to keep the communication door open. Talk with respect to family members, try to minimize, try to help people counter any sense of shame they have asked the really interesting questions. What do you like about drugs? Instead of focusing on the harm, ask family members what they like, try to understand their point of view, it’s very disarming, and believe in your family members, believe that they have the power to make changes.
“Keep the communication door open. Talk with respect to family members…”- Robert Schwebel Share on XJeff Jones: Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And then one way that people can learn more about you is to get this book, but can you share how other people who want to learn more can learn more about you, maybe like websites–
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Yes.
Jeff Jones: –whatever.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Well there is a website, sevenchallenges.com, and the seven is written out, it’s not a digit, it’s S-E-V-E-N-C-H-A-L-L-E-N-G-E-S.C-O-M. I’m actually, within a week starting my own website, robertschwebel.com. And I’m on Facebook with my name Robert Schwebel.
Jeff Jones: Can u spell your last name please.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: The last name is S-C-H-W-E-B as in boy, E-L.C-O-M. And I’m on LinkedIn, and I’m late coming to the scene here with social media. But this past year I started doing these things and on Instagram I think I’m Robert Schwebel PhD on Instagram.
Jeff Jones: Wow. So right, I thank you very much for this conversation. I’ve learned a lot. I really appreciate the book and I will dive into it more and more over time, and ideally share it with some of my own clients. So thank you very much.
Dr. Robert Schwebel: Thank you so much.