61: Master Coach & Drama Triangle Expert, Barb McAllister Openly Shares About Her Recent Challenges and Successes
“You don’t have to be a coach, a professional coach, to cultivate some of the most important coaching skills.” –Barb McAllister
Perhaps, humans are endowed with that superhero attitude to go and rescue somebody. Sometimes, though, people tend to have a distorted view of a distress call. Not everybody needs to be rescued. Although the motive is right, the outcome may not be as beneficial for both the ‘rescuer’ and the person being ‘rescued’. This episode expounds on the drama triangle, particularly on the ‘rescuer’ role and the disadvantages of stepping into this role. Recovery is not far off from your reach. Sometimes, to help others, you might need to start with yourself. Listen in and see how the drama in your family can turn into happy ending story.
Highlights:
01:30 Growing Up in a Family with a Lot of Drama
05:17 How to Relate to Yourself
15:14 The Drama Triangle
25:54 Maintaining a Healthy Boundary
30:29 The Door Out of the Rescuer Role
35:58 The Right Question Before Jumping In
40:49 Get Off the Roller Coaster
44:25 Be Aware of Your Own Triggers
The drama triangle is a roller coaster ride that nobody would want to get on. Join @TFRSolution as he interviews Barb McAllister on how to build a healthy relationship with your family despite all the dramas of life. #dramatriangle #Rescuer… Share on X
Resources:
3 Vital Questions: Transforming Workplace Drama by David Emerald
The Power of TED* (*The Empowerment Dynamic) by David Emerald
Quotes:
“You don’t have to be a coach, a professional coach, to cultivate some of the most important coaching skill.” –Barb McAllister
“How I relate to myself is by… being a witness of myself.” –Barb McAllister
“I believe in possibility… Anything is possible for anybody.” –Barb McAllister
“Everybody can handle their own scandal. Everybody is whole and complete and they can handle their own issues themselves.” –Barb McAllister
“The key to it all is recognizing that when you’re compelled to jump in and do something for somebody else, you are just responding to your own anxieties.” –Barb McAllister
“We need to first, be self-aware and then we need to self-manage that is what this journey is about.” –Barb McAllister
“You have to be self-aware; you have to ask for guidance from something bigger than yourself. Because the guidance isn’t going to come from your ego.” –Barb McAllister
“That’s what’s always available to us; we always get to choose how we look at a situation and how we relate to it.” –Barb McAllister
“Doing the work to understand what triggers you and then what your conditioned responses are to the triggers is really important in this because it’s often that we’re triggered that causes us to jump into action and rescue somebody.” –Barb McAllister
About Barb McAllister
Life is a colorful combination of many genres. Barb McAllister is one of the many people who grew up in a family dominated by drama which was intensified by the addiction in their family. As Barb got accustomed to it, she also developed an unhealthy conditioned response. But, she was able to turn her life around as she developed and maintained a healthy relationship with her loved ones with addiction by making a shift from being the ‘rescuer’ to a ‘coach’. She owns a private practice called Thrive Coaching and Consulting where she serves as a Master Coach, Consultant and Trainer to countless individuals who are caught up in the drama triangle and help them make their lives less dramatic-sounding.
Website: https://thriveinthislife.com/
Email: barb@thriveinthislife.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/barb-mcallister-ms-mcc-7a9a443
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/barb.mcallister.77
Telephone: 206-799-9446
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
Jeff Jones: So welcome everyone, this is Jeff Jones on the podcast Families Navigating Addiction And Recovery. And today I’m excited to have as my guest Barb McAllister, she’s a master coach actually with a guest that I’ve had on this podcast earlier, and they’re both experts with the Drama Triangle, and they use that in their coaching. And Barb is a trainer as well, so welcome Barb.
Barb McAllister: Thank you Jeff.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: Glad to be here.
Jeff Jones: You’re welcome. And so, if we could just start with you talking a little bit more about who you are. So people who are listening, have a good sense of who they’re listening to.
Barb McAllister: Okay. Well, the first thing I say is, I grew up in a family where there was a lot of drama. So, I mean, of course, I didn’t realize that when I was a kid, I thought it was normal. I became accustomed to drama, and when I grew up, I created a fair amount of it myself. I actually got into acting, which maybe was a healthy way of dealing with drama.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: But, since I’ve gotten into my own recovery, I’m no longer interested in acting. But yeah, I became accustomed to a fair amount of drama really until I got into Al-anon over 15 years ago. Before I got into Al-anon because I thought my former husband had an addiction, and I basically tried to nag him out of it. And until I got into Al-anon, I didn’t realize that, I too had an addiction, mine was work. And I, when I got into Al-anon, and I began to shift my focus away from him, and what I thought was wrong with him to myself, and thus begin, I didn’t really begin my journey of self awareness, but it certainly has contributed to it. So, over the last 15 plus years, I’ve been working on creating healthy relationships with myself, and all the addicts, and alcoholics in my family. I have a fair amount of addiction in my family. It’s my grandfather was definitely an alcoholic, my mom was clearly impacted by the disease of addiction, my youngest son is an addict, I’ve had an aunt that just recently passed away at 90 who was an alcoholic, and I’m a recovering workaholic, and that’s just, I have a nephew that’s an alcoholic. So, that gives you a flavor for the, you know, the impact of the disease in my family.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: So, one of the things that I’ve been pursuing and working on is, how the shift from trying to rescue myself and other people from their anxieties and addictions to basically taking responsibility in myself for how I relate to myself and others. So, it took me a number of years, but I realized actually that Al-anon is a program for creating healthy relationships. And now I can, you know, pretty comfortably say I have healthy relationships with a lot of people. It used to be for me that, I was very judgmental of alcoholics and addicts, I think because they scared me, and I hadn’t owned it in myself anyways. And so, what I, my coping mechanism back then was basically to ignore them, or nag at them, neither of which were particularly healthy. So, now I’ve learned, I’ve learned how to be with myself and others in a kind of a much more accepting place. So, this podcast is really about how I’m learning to shift from being a rescuer to a coach. But I don’t mean professional coach here, even though I am a professional coach. I mean someone who uses coaching skills effectively in relationship.
“You don't have to be a coach, a professional coach, to cultivate some of the most important coaching skill.” –Barb McAllister Share on XJeff Jones: Wow, that’s a great distinction that you made right there, Barb.
Barb McAllister: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: Really good distinction because, I know when I’ve used that language before, people think of, well I’m not a coach.
Barb McAllister: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: Like so, yeah, beautiful.
Barb McAllister: You don’t have to be a coach, a professional coach to cultivate some of the most important coaching skills, which I’ll go over in a little bit.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Barb McAllister: But, I first want to talk about David Emerald’s book about Workplace Drama: 3 Vital Questions. And as Jeff said earlier, Don Jose John, who is someone I taught a lot of webinars with, a really good friend of mine, and his wife and business partner. And we all live on Bainbridge Island together, so we’re friends and colleagues. But in his book, one of the three vital questions, is how am I relating to myself and others? So, it’s a really good book–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: How am I relating to myself in others? Am I relating in ways that produce, or perpetuate drama, or in ways that empower myself and others to be more resilient and resourceful? That’s a question I’m always asking myself now is how am I relating to that person? And you know, I’ve come to learn that I always have control over how I relate to them, whether it’s reacting, which I’m learning not to do nearly as much as I used to. I like to think that I respond more than I react. So, you know, at the core of all of this was my very strong desire to create healthy relationships with addicts, and alcoholics in my family. At some point in my journey, I’m like, you know, this is really stressful. It’s, you know, it was stressful for me too because I was so reactive to those behaviors that accompanied the disease.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: And getting into Al-anon was interesting because, it’s like three people within two weeks suggested to me that I get into Al-anon, I was 51 years old and I, I am shocked that I didn’t even know about Al-anon, I didn’t even think I have addiction in my family. I was just like, wow, boy was I in denial? Did I, of course was one of my most useful strategies as a kid cause it helped me survive a lot of chaos. So, in Al-anon, as well as my own personal growth work, I’ve really learning how to respond rather than react. And as a result, I now, I’m happy to say, I now have a fair amount of serenity in my life despite the fact that my youngest son, as I said for a number of years, a heroin addiction, but it’s not just terrible, but it’s really everything, all substances, and an alcohol, and he’s my youngest. I have three kids, and it’s, I don’t know, but I don’t think there’s anything harder than having a kid that struggles with the disease of addiction. He’s 28, and he’s been struggling probably since he was 15, and been in and out of recovery, in and out of sobriety.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: It’s really this supreme challenge for me to maintain a healthy relationship with him, while also taking care of myself.
Jeff Jones: Sure, so Barb, I want to ask you a question and go back to a number of times you have said: “How I relate to myself? How I relate to myself?” And so I pretty much get what you’re saying, but for people who may hear that language and not really understand, can you talk a little bit about how you do that?
Barb McAllister: Relate to myself?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: Yeah. So, how I relate to myself is, by being a conscious presence, by being a witness of myself basically. So, I’ll give you an example. I had a really stressful week last week with my son, and you know, he called me from his treatment center, and I hadn’t talked to him in a while. And his voice, I was triggered by his voice because he sounded like, he sounded kind of like a wounded animal. And he was, you know, mumbling, and rambling and–
“How I relate to myself is by… being a witness of myself.” –Barb McAllister Share on XJeff Jones: Mmm, and then so when you heard that, what happened inside of you?
Barb McAllister: Yeah, well, I immediately knew I was triggered and that’s how I learned how to relate to myself, like, Oh, I am so triggered. And what I realized was, and now when I can witness myself, I can then choose my response, but I have to catch it, and I did catch it. I’m like, I am really triggered, and assumed there after I realized I know what I’m triggered because he sounds like a zombie. And I grew up with a Dad that was heavily medicated for 20 years, not for an addiction, but for a mental illness. And it was, he just seemed like a zombie. And I’ve had, I have other people in my life where that triggers me. It’s like they’re, they’re dead, you know, in a way to me. And that’s kinda how my son seemed to me. And so, I relate to myself realizing I’m really triggered, I need to take care of myself, I need to get support, I need to pause, I need to reflect, and I need to not do anything and be reactive. I need to go for a walk when I’m triggered, which I can still be, but certainly alcoholic or addictive behaviors? Now, I can catch it pretty quickly, and I know that I need to go for a walk, or you know, move my large muscles in my body, or something like that.
Jeff Jones: Right, right, right. And I mean, just like the description that you used, it was like: “I was talking to my son, and he sounded like a wounded animal.” And I’m going, oh my gosh, what mother would not have some kind of feelings of, you know, being scared for their child. They’re wanting to do something, or Oh my God, this is so much worse than the last time I talked to my child, and is there anything I can, I mean, and all of this kind of thinking messages that would probably go through any mother’s head who cares and loves their son.
Barb McAllister: Yeah, yeah. It’s like it still comes up for me, the desire to go rescue him. I mean, I’m going to be talking about how I shift from wanting to rescue myself or others from my anxieties and discomfort to being in a very different place. But it comes up with him, I mean if I could I go there, I slimed India to Ashram. I mean that, I actually think that, and I think he probably be pretty happy in an Ashram, and I know that is not the answer to his issues. And I’m going to be talking a little bit about how my journey with him is to hold him to what I call, handle his own scandal.
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Barb McAllister: And, I think that’s so important because when we’re rescuing, we’re basically not holding the person capable to deal with their own issues, and I don’t want to be in that place with anybody.
Jeff Jones: And the, you know, my understanding of the rescue, or the Drama Triangle, and specifically the rescuer, it’s like part of the strategy there is, if I can rescue you, or if I can rescue whoever I see is in bad need of it, then I’m gonna feel better than a strategy for me to regulate my own nervous system.
Barb McAllister: Exactly. That’s exactly what it is, it’s really owning anxieties that you’re trying to quell.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And then, what you’re talking about is, one, being aware of those natural anxieties, that thinking of wanting to help, and knowing that if you do that, it is not the answer that’s not going to help. And you’re sending the message. I don’t trust that you can do it for yourself.
Barb McAllister: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: Oh, my gosh.
Barb McAllister: It’s really powerful, yeah. So let me talk a little bit more about the shifting to a coach base of it. So, I’m not going to rescue people that are quote in trouble. Who am I going to be? Is the question. And in David Emerald’s, he has two books. You may have heard about them. One is the 3 Vital Questions, but the first one was the Empowerment Dynamic. Do you talk about this already with Donna? Do I need to summarize it again?
Jeff Jones: I think it would be helpful to summarize the Drama Triangle because probably not everyone who listens to this will have heard Donna’s podcast. Just a quick brief summary would be helpful.
Barb McAllister: Yeah. So, David Emeralds were builds on the work of Dr. Stephen Karpman, who basically identified three archetypal drama roles that we all tend to occupy one time or another. And those roles are persecutor, victim, and rescuer. So, I’m talking about one of the three roles, the rescue, even though I’ve been in all three roles, and I routinely rotate around the drama rules as we all do, but David’s unique contribution is, he has developed an empowered alternative to the Drama Triangle roles. And so, the empowered alternative to the rescuer is the coach.
Jeff Jones: Yes.
Barb McAllister: And basically, as I said before, it doesn’t mean a professional coach, but it means somebody who embodies the qualities of a coach. And so, it’s great in my own journey in recovery that I’ve also, in the last 15 years of my life become a master coach because I know what qualities are now.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: And I actually had to demonstrate them in order to get the, you know, the mastery level of coaching. And I’m so grateful for that because it’s really helps me with my family. The qualities are curiosity, being genuinely curious, really being able to meet people where they are. Deep listening, listening at multiple levels, you know, including what people say and what they don’t say, what their body language is communicating, asking powerful questions that are open-ended and not judgemental, or blaming compassion. You know, and as I said before, as a coach, I believe in possibility. I actually really believe anything is possible for anybody. So that means one of the qualities I think is really important to navigate, to have a serene relationship with people who are struggling with their addictions is basically the firm belief that everybody can handle their own scandal. Everybody is whole and complete, and they can handle their own issues themselves.
“I believe in possibility… Anything is possible for anybody.” –Barb McAllister Share on XJeff Jones: Sure. So Barb, I am curious, can you provide some kind of thinking, or actions, or words from the rescuer role. And then some thinking, or actions, or words from the coach role, and you know, make it as real as you like, and the example that is fresh for you and alive may be a way to do that. But any example to help, you know, people really get this in a concrete way.
“Everybody can handle their own scandal. Everybody is whole and complete and they can handle their own issues themselves.” –Barb McAllister Share on XBarb McAllister: Yeah, well a great way of looking at the big picture wise is, when we’re in the rescuing mode, where were generally telling people what to do, we think we know. So we’re advising, we’re giving a lot of suggestions when we’re in a coaching mode, we’re not doing that in the coaching mode. It’s really more about who we’re being. So, using the example of my son, so he called me, I had that conversation with them and then I realized I could go visit him. They just have a two hour visitation there per week. So, I actually flew out and visited him for two hours on Saturday, and I was very intent on not suggesting to him what I think he should do, or advising him. But instead, I focused on my being. So, I’m really was just trying to be present with him and provide emotional support by my presence. And in this case, I sat next to him on a sofa, I held his hand, I’ve listened. A rescuer will be talking, and a coach will be listening more, though is really, I mean I was really in coaching when I was just kind of listening to him. He’d say something, it was a little hard to hear him because he’s kind of mumbling, but I would ask him some clarifying questions.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: Say this: “What did you mean by that?” Because in a coaching mode, you’re curious. You’re not assuming you know what the person is thinking, or what they should do. You’re genuinely curious. So, I would imagine that in a rescuing conversation it’s more frantic, and you know, well, have you tried this? Have you tried that? And in a coaching mode, you’re more like, how are you doing? You know, it’s that connection to, and the best coaching relationships, I’m in a partnership with people.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: I’m not the expert. Honestly, I have no idea what it’s going to take for him to recover, really find his place in life. I used to think that, I mean, when he was like in his teen years, that’s what’s the challenge of this with the child, and he isn’t a child anymore, he’s a grown man. But when you have a teenager that’s struggling with addiction, you’re still in a parental role. You know, you may have to tell your kid, I mean, I did several interventions on him when he was a teenager. Now? Not so much, you know, we are a family, we knew he had relapsed, and our family guy, I something like a coaching kind of behavior. I organized a conference call with my former husband and our two older kids, and we all talked about: “Is there anything we need to do here?”
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Barb McAllister: And we’re all, you know, it’s interesting from our own journey, we’re all like: “Nope, no, we’ve done interventions in the past. There’s nothing to do.” But with that, there are ways to be. So what I do now for my son is, I love him unconditionally. And that was one of my main reasons for visiting him. I want him to know that no matter what, loved and accepted for where he is.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So Barb, let me ask a question, I’m curious. So, I have a picture in my mind from your description. You’re sitting on the couch with your son holding his hand, doing a lot of listening, and asking clarifying questions, and you know, so I’m curious, how did he respond? Or what was your sense of what happened for him from your presence, and your listening?
Barb McAllister: Yeah, that’s a good question. Of course, I don’t know exactly, but I think he kept saying that he was sorry I had to see him in this condition, and he also expressed his gratitude for me coming to visit him. And he would put his arm around me occasionally, and you know, I hold his hand, and then he takes both of his hands, and put my hand between it. You know, there was just like a connection and empathy, or going back and forth, and you know, cause he could qualify for Al-anon as well because he’s also a codependent. He wants to make other people feel better too. So, I think he may have been tried to rescue me a little bit, but I’m sure at some level he knows I don’t need any rescuing.
Jeff Jones: Well the other, I mean, kind of what I’m getting just from listening to you is, just your being there, your flying up there going to wherever he was, and spending time with him, and holding his hand, and just being with him had a huge impact. Like just the, you know, the description that you use your hand between both of his.
Barb McAllister: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: That’s a pretty loud message. I mean, because if we just imagine what someone might be feeling, who is holding the other person’s hand as they’re talking and being listened to. And I mean, it sounds like it made a huge impact on him, you know?
Barb McAllister: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: And you don’t know, there’s a lot of unknown, but what you do know is that, you had the intention, you went there, and you spent time with him, and loved him unconditionally. And the intention was, what I’m hearing is to move from like all the rescuer kind of stuff that can happen habitually when we’re not aware of it, to being real conscious of moving into what David Emerald refers to as coachella.
Barb McAllister: Yeah, they’re required a lot of self management for me because I’d had gotten so triggered, and it requires me to shift negative thinking by nature. I’m a very positive person, but boy, you know, when I’m watching my son in this kind of the state he is in, it really felt like he’d returned from a war zone.
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Barb McAllister: He was a shell of his former self. And just being in that, I was like, I had to really do a lot of grounding, and you know, meditating to asking my, I call it a higher power. I like to think it’s the divine in me to basically help me, help me know at some level how to be, so I had, I asked for help.
Jeff Jones: And you’re trusting that?
Barb McAllister: Yup.
Jeff Jones: And you put your trust in that.
Barb McAllister: I had to put my trust in that because honestly, I didn’t know, and I was scared based on hearing his voice, he sounded very wounded.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: I thought he might not have any teeth from being homeless, and you know, I was just like: “Oh man, that’s going to be really hard.” He did ask me, but I think it’s like a war zone out there on the streets. And so my, how I make sense of having a healthy relationship with him is one, where I have a healthy boundary, meaning I take care of myself, and I love them unconditionally, I hold both. And the healthy boundary for me is, I would never ever have him live with me again. It was too crazy, the times that I tried that because I didn’t know if he was using or not. So, I’ve been really clear that that is my healthy boundary, and I will always love him unconditionally. And I believe he knows that, you know, that his family loves him unconditionally. And so, much of my work is helping my other two kids, you know, it’s been a devastating journey for them with their younger brother who, you know, he’s a classic person that, you know, he’s the golden boy that fell prey to his addiction, and I try to keep myself healthy so I can help all my other family members, just support them and be with them in their sadness and grief. There’s a lot of grief with it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Barb, I really appreciate the way you talked about what I call both hands. It’s like having the ability, and building up the capacity, and resiliency to be able to hold two things at the same time. And what I heard you talk about is, you know, really doing your own self care, your own work around this, and you know, holding that as valuable and important right next to loving your son unconditionally, and wherever he’s at.
Barb McAllister: Yeah, yeah. It says, I think that the journey is holding polarities, and with him I also hold, I never forget who he truly are. I mean, I know who he is at his essence, and with him, I hold both angel and addict.
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Barb McAllister: One of the lightest beings I’ve ever met, that’s the angel, and he’s one of the darkest beings I’ve ever met, that’s the addict. And my journey, you know, as his mom is just holding both, never forgetting who he truly is. And that’s what I try to reflect in this presence. I like to be a mirror of that, of his essence.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh, wow. I can only imagine that being a huge gift for him.
Barb McAllister: Yeah, I hope so. Early on in this journey, I decided, gosh, I have to spend gold out of this. This is such a heartbreaking journey and I have no idea what the outcome is going to be, whether he’ll have a solid recovery, whether he’ll die tomorrow, he’s been close to death’s door multiple times. I don’t know what the outcome is, but I like to help families of alcoholics. It’s kind of my way of giving back, and it’s something I can do.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah. So can you talk a little bit about, for family members who may be listening to this, and relating to, of course, I need to rescue my son, or my daughter, my family member, they’re in such bad shape, and they put, you know, they may guilt their self if they don’t, or something. And so, are there any, like a couple tips, or something like that that you may have to help someone kind of, I guess first off, recognize that they’re like attached so deeply to the rescuer role, and what’s that doing to them personally, and the message that’s being sent to the other?
Barb McAllister: Well, I think the key two it all is recognizing when you’re compelled to jump in and do something for somebody else, you are just responding to your own anxieties. So, if you can catch yourself there and go, and then ask yourself, what do I need that requires an ability to have healthy relationships with your own emotions. The key is always the self-awareness, catching it.
“The key to it all is recognizing that when you're compelled to jump in and do something for somebody else, you are just responding to your own anxieties.” –Barb McAllister Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: I’m really anxious so I want to do something.
Jeff Jones: The mindfulness.
Barb McAllister: Yeah, it’s all just consciousness, mindfulness, really being self aware. It’s like, you know, emotional intelligence, they talk about that we need to be self-aware first, and then we need to self-manage. That is what this journey is about. Awareness, I’m really anxious, I know I want to do something, you know, so many people are driven, they feel guilty unless they do something.
“We need to first, be self-aware and then we need to self-manage that is what this journey is about.” –Barb McAllister Share on XJeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: So, I often say to people, well maybe there’s something to do, or maybe not, but who do you want to be? That’s the question, I think it’s really powerful. Who do you want to be? What are the qualities that you want to exhibit in this relationship? And you know, invite a person that step back and think about that, this is exactly what I had to do before my visit with him.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: Then there’s one other thing, you know, when he was probably 20 years old or 19, I basically asked him to leave the house, and you know, it just had gotten really crazy, and I didn’t know whether he was using or not. He wasn’t keeping a job, and I checked in to my higher power, which I think is my divine self.
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Barb McAllister: And I said: “I asked for guidance.” And this is what I, you know, it’s what I talked about all the time in recovery. “Turn it over.” You know that term they use? Turn it over.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: That’s what I did in that situation, and I got very firm guidance. It’s basically said: “He has to go.” You have to let him go. And I did, and he ended up at the salvation army for a couple of years, which was actually pretty good spot for him. He was safe, he wasn’t using, probably an important part of his recovery journey, but I took a ton of flack from people for doing that, including my former husband. He was really mad at me for doing that but I was so firm in it because I got the guidance, I knew it was the right thing to do, and it was risky. So you have to be self aware. You have to ask for guidance from something bigger than yourself. The guidance isn’t going to come from your ego, because your ego is going to tell you to rescue your kid.
“You have to be self-aware; you have to ask for guidance from something bigger than yourself. Because the guidance isn't going to come from your ego.” –Barb McAllister Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: You know the mother’s love, there’s nothing stronger than that. I don’t think that a mother’s love for a child, and it’s excruciating to watch a kid suffer, it’s still excruciating.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, absolutely.
Barb McAllister: I have learned to be with it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So Barb, I want to ask a question, and I wanna name, I’m gonna move over into the challenger role and poke a little bit. And like on this podcast I’ve talked to a number of different people who have, you know, utilized different strategies. And I’m thinking about one, well I’m thinking about several different conversations really, but that is, you know, specifically the family member, or the mother who said: “You know what, I needed to break into that house, and pull my child out of there, and take them to treatment. And I am so glad that I did that.” And like, their child’s been clean and sober for the last, you know, whatever. But you know, kind of where I’m going with this, and I’m sure you’ve talked to people yourself, and heard people talk about, and it’s kinda like, you know, if you’re with your child, and they step out in front of the road, and there’s a bus coming along, of course you’re going to grab them and pull them up onto the curb.
Barb McAllister: Right.
Jeff Jones: And you know, I guess my own position on this is, there isn’t just one black and white way to deal with this stuff. And, what you mentioned early on, how I relate to myself, kind of, like the connection that the person has with themselves. If they can go through a process to sit with that and then make a decision, so, I don’t know. Can you talk about, you know, maybe your own experiences, or just what you know about the rescuer kind of role? Like can the rescuer ever be a successful strategy for a moment? For one situation?
Barb McAllister: Yeah, I’m really sure it can be. I guess what I would like to say is that, I don’t think there’s one size that fits all. And you know, my thinking about the disease of addiction, and my relationship with alcoholics, and addicts, has changed dramatically in the last 10 years with them, the more I learned, the more I experienced. So much of it is, doing your own work, and like as I said before, basically checking in what is called for in the situation from me. So, while my son was younger, I did my first intervention and I just, I mean I did a full blown intervention on him. He was senior on high school, his best friend came to me and said: “He’s in deep trouble.” I said: “Okay, got it.” And basically he went right into treatment from there. And we did several other interventions, this time he’s 28, he decides to go to use, to have a relapse, and did to live on the streets. And that’s, you know, where our family got together and said: “Is there anything that we need to do here?” So, I think it’s always important to think about it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: And the question is not as necessarily, what should I do? It’s, what is being called for from me in this situation?And that’s where all four of us said: “We didn’t think an intervention would work.” But we did hire a PI, my former husband and I, because when he relapsed, you know, we always know when he’s off the rails because he communicates when he’s sober, and he was off the rails for quite a while and we thought he might be dead. So we hired a private investigator who found them. So we knew he was alive and living on the streets, and now he’s not in very good shape. So, when his Medicaid Insurance ran out, so we decided to pay for another week for him to stay in the treatment center until they could find him appropriate housing. So, you know, there are things that I do–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: –really, really check, and I focus mostly on how I want to show up, and who I want to be, and ask for guidance and make sure I choose my response from a healthy place, not from a reactive, not from a, you know, I’m so anxious, I’m out of my mind. I do first what I know to do, to calm myself down through hiking, yoga, meditation, and then I check in, and I get support from people that I know that are in the program, or you know, really good friends and we talk about it, okay. So, I hope that answers the question.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, that’s great. I just had to ask that question because you know, there’s, I don’t know of any silver bullet way to deal with these problems, I mean, this is horrendous for any family member to watch someone go through one struggle after another. And what do they do about it? And I, I mean, like I have known numerous people who’ve had been to treatment. Well, I was interviewing a woman probably close to 10 months ago, and her daughter had been to treatment 40 times, 40 times? And I’m just like, wow, my head was spinning and all of the stuff, the drama, the emotion that goes on in the family around that, like, you know, they’re finally safe, and then, oh my God, they’re not. And I mean, all of that stuff. So, yeah, thank you very much for talking about this. Like initially, when we started talking, and I was asking you about a topic you said: “Yeah, I will talk about the topic going from the rescuer to the coach, and the drama triangle.” And then this thing happened in your life, and it’s like, this is not just a cute little academic conceptual thing.
Barb McAllister: No, no.
Jeff Jones: And you’re an expert in the academic conceptual thing as well, I want to acknowledge that, but it’s like, wow, this is–
Barb McAllister: Yeah, it’s personal (laughs).
Jeff Jones: Yeah, it’s personal. Thank you very much.
Barb McAllister: Yeah, just want to say a couple of other things that, the journey is learning how to stay off the roller coaster so, there likely will continue to be a roller coaster. I mean, maybe not, but there’s been a roller coaster, you know, with him. And I can always choose if I want to be on that roller coaster or not, so that’s one thing. And the second thing I learned is that, while I can’t trust him, I can trust his process. That was a huge turning point for me when I realized, oh yeah, I can’t trust him when, you know, if he’s an addict mode. But boy, I can trust his process, and that’s where I’ve had to really dig deep, and surrender to something bigger going on here. And I like to think that, both he and I are healing the dysfunctional behaviors that have been passed down through generations in our family–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: –that differently. But, he is such a spiritual warrior, and he’s very deep that, I see that this may be his way of healing and I’m doing my own thing, and I have to look at it that way. That’s part of spinning gold out of, what otherwise could have killed me. I mean, I had my moment when he said he was a heroin addict. I’m like, Oh, I mean there was nothing worse that I thought one could say about oneself.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Barb McAllister: And in that moment, I felt deep despair, and I got support, and with the help of some really good friends, I moved through that to a more empowering interpretation. And that’s what’s always available to us. We always get to choose how we look at a situation, and how we relate to it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, oh my gosh. And I really, really appreciate the last two takeaways, I see them as takeaways. The last two messages that you have here about, you can choose to stay on the roller coaster or get off, and then you know, I can’t always trust him, especially when he’s in addict mode, but I can trust his process. And then Barb, you went to talking about healing the generational trauma that has been passed down from one generation to another, which I, you know, just you naming that perspective. I know you have done quite a bit of work here so, I really want to acknowledge that, and I really appreciate the personal message, and I really hope a lot of people who hear this can benefit.
Barb McAllister: I hope so, too. My goal is, I mean, I love being a coach for my profession, but this is my highest calling, which is helping families heal and create healthy relationships.
Jeff Jones: So, I want to, one, I want to ask how people can get ahold of you? But before I go there, is there any other, you know, message, or thing that you wanted to say?
Barb McAllister: Oh yeah, I guess there’s one other thing that I will talk about that I briefly mentioned, and that is becoming aware of our own triggers. It’s been hugely important for, and I mentioned the fact that the sound of his voice really triggered me cause he sounded to me like a zombie, and that is a situation that is a huge trigger for me. So, doing the work to understand what triggers you? And then, what your conditioned responses are to the triggers? Is it really important in us?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: Because, it’s often that we’re triggered that causes us to jump in to action and rescue somebody.
“Doing the work to understand what triggers you and then what your conditioned responses are to the triggers is really important in this because it's often that we're triggered that causes us to jump into action and rescue somebody.” –Barb… Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Barb McAllister: So, that’s been really important to me. So, I pretty much know what triggers me. Also, I’ve learned that one of my triggers is, it’s Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, in my family, what I noticed was, I never quite knew where people were coming from. Sometimes they were really nice, sometimes they were really neat. So, it’s sort of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, and I always felt like I was in shifting sands that could still trigger me in a relationship. So, I know that about myself, and I know what to do when I get triggered, which is take a walk, go for a hike, talk to a friend, take a deep breath, meditate. But knowing what triggers us, you can probably hear that theme here, it’s self-awareness. You have to own your own addictions, you have to understand your triggers, you have to catch yourself when you are confronted, and you are jumping in to manage your own anxieties, thinking that you’re trying to help somebody. And of course, you’re not trying to help yourself. It’s the self-awareness followed by the self-management. And then in addition to that, it’s empathy, you know, for people at this world trying to do the best we can. That’s all the emotional intelligence stuff, self awareness, self management, empathy. Very, very key in recovery.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, beautiful, wow, great messages there. I really, really appreciate it. So, how would people learn more about you? Or connect with you?
Barb McAllister: Well you can go to my website, which is thriveinthislife.com.
Jeff Jones: thriveinthislife.com.
Barb McAllister: All one word, that’s like, I like to think I’ve moved from surviving to thrive, most of the time, anyway. Yeah, that’s my website, and then just sheds a bit more light on me, and not in the level of detail I’ve gone in in this podcast. Because this podcast is for special audience, you know, or people can always call me, but my email on there and people could call me (206) 799-9446.
Jeff Jones: Great, Barb, thank you very much.
Barb McAllister: You’re welcome, it’s my pleasure, yeah.