59: Boulder Psychotherapist and Zen Practitioner, Rex West Discusses the Stability of Family, the Truth-teller, Suffering, and 3 Simple Rules for Any Family
“The kid is not the problem… It’s the whole system.” –Rex West
When kids demonstrate the problem in the family, they get criticized. There is an unheard message beyond the family culture. Today’s podcast navigates the larger context around these family issues. How families support individuation and deal with their sufferings can create change in their system. Learn the 3 simple rules that every family needs to start implementing now. Stabilize your family, for it is the foundation on which every member, present and future, will be holding on to.
Highlights:
03:27 Growing Up in Colorado
14:09 From Teaching to Psychotherapy
21:29 Supporting Individualization
27:16 Brain Development & the Male-Female Biological Make-up
34:50 3 Rules for Families
41:11 The Impact of Family Culture in Various Forms of Subtle Addictions
49:09 The Truth-Teller
51:15 Change the System
Everybody has their own sufferings. And every family has their own struggles. It’s a part of human experience. But there’s something you can do! Join @TFRSolution in a face-to-face conversation with Rex West in #biology #neurology #sufferings… Share on X
About Rex West
Rex West, former teacher turned psychotherapist, is a native of Colorado. He is the owner of Ground Counselling, LCC. His works revolve around helping individuals, couples and families of various backgrounds, beliefs and preferences relieve their sufferings and stabilize their family. The family is a very important aspect of a person’s growth and development. Rex taps into this culture to help his clients achieve the life they dream.
Connect With Rex:
Website: https://www.groundcounseling.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rex-west-lpc-ma-psych-ma-education-8218084a
Quotes:
22:01 “There are many paradoxes about being human basis of the dual nature of just our minds.” –Rex West
22:33 “Every parent wants their child to walk. They understand that that’s so important. And yet, it is this process of letting go.” –Rex West
25:33 “It’s how the parent based on their own experiences of being a child in their family system. And they bring all that in. Again, it’s not whether it was good or bad, it’s just what it was.” –Rex West
48:50 “Love yourself of is number one… Love your kid/kids. Those are the most basic and fundamental things… Prioritize your family, your family as a whole.” –Rex West
49:18 “Prioritize the couple… Do you work; you have to do your work.” –Rex West
50:07 “The kid is not the problem… It’s the whole system.” –Rex West
51:26 “Trying to change those patterns without someone helping them and guiding them, is it doable? Sure. And it’s really, really, really hard.” –Rex West
52:31 The system of care in our country is set up in a way that reinforces these unrealistic expectations for families.” –Jeff Jones
54:22 “Learn how to be an effective listener so you can actually really listen to your kids.” –Rex West
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
Jeff Jones: So hello everyone. This is Jeff Jones on podcast Families Navigating Addiction And Recovery. And today is a very different kind of situation and conversation. One face to face with my guests. That doesn’t happen very much. My guest is Rex West, he’s a psychotherapist in Boulder and I have known Rex for, I dunno, a good number of years, and have been out to breakfast with him a number of times. We’ve had conversation and so today in this podcast, I’m going to be asking Rex about to go deeper into some things that have come up in our previous conversations. And so one of those topics is specifically the family’s role with youth in residential treatment, and kind of the process of residential treatment. And so when I say the process, it’s not just an event, it’s not just a 30 day, or 90 day event. Yeah, there’s a lot that happens before this, and there’s a lot that happens after this. But anyhow, my guest, Rex West, so welcome.
Rex West: Thank you. Good morning.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, good morning. I appreciate that we finally found a time and we’re both here at the same place–
Rex West: But they know what you gotta bless them today (laughs).
Jeff Jones: –and the technology gods have blessed us.
Rex West: –Exactly.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah. And so if we could start with you just saying a little bit, however you want to introduce yourself.
Rex West: Sure, yeah. I guess first and foremost, I’m a Native Boulderite. I was born and raised in Boulder, Colorado, which I’m actually proud of. I’ve lived in many other places in the world, but came back to Boulder to raise my family, because I had a great family situation growing up at Boulder on two really wonderful, loving, caring, supportive parents, and wonderful brother and sister who are also very loving and caring, supportive.
Jeff Jones: I met your mom, I’ve known your brother, I’ve known your brother longer than–
Rex West: Longer than me.
Jeff Jones: –I’ve known you.
Rex West: –Yeah. really.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, yeah. And I know a little bit about the solidness of your family.
Rex West: –Yeah, yeah.
Jeff Jones: –And that’s an important piece that you bring here. It was specific to this conversation too because this is all about families.
Rex West: Yes. Which, and I’m glad you’ve said it that way because that’s one of the main ways that I work in the perspectives that come from is the foundation of family in a systems perspective.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: –I come from a systems theory perspective background. And so the family system is, for me the name of the game, whether I’m working with an individual, a couple or family system.
Jeff Jones: –Right, yeah.
Rex West: –Which I work with all three.
Jeff Jones: –So I appreciate that. I get what you’re saying, but what might that mean to just a family member who isn’t, you know, doesn’t have a psychology background, or isn’t like a long term therapy client? What does that system’s perspective mean? What might that mean to them?
Rex West: Well, I guess the perspective I would give on that is my own personal perspective, being part of a family system.
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Rex West: And as I alluded to earlier, just growing up in my family system, which is just the one I know.–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: –And created my foundation for all of this, that even before I got the training that I’ve had in my life experience, I understood, oh, okay, this unit is really important to me.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And it’s what I count on and I depend on–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: –and I know that I have a home.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: –I feel safe in my home. I have a mother and a father, very fortunate in that, who love me and care about me. And would do anything to support me.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: Who also set clear rules and regulations for the household–
Jeff Jones: Substructure.
Rex West: –Substructure, exactly. And the household I grew up there was, there’s actually latitude for my brother and my sister and I to explore the world and making choices. And we always knew that we were loved.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: So, no matter what choices we made, no matter how well they turned out, or how not well they didn’t turn out, you know–
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: –making mistakes. We always knew that our parents would be there for us, which is that, to me, that’s the foundation of it all.
Jeff Jones: Just in listening to what you said specifically, we always knew we weren’t luck kind of thing. I can start to feel a little chills, you know, because that’s not always the case.–
Rex West: I say more often than not, it’s not.
Jeff Jones: –More often than not.
Rex West: –Yeah, just in my experience.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: –I’d even say for myself personally, within that supportive dynamic, I talk about my story about myself.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: When you peel away everything else, there’s several things that, one of the main things that’s there that I’m not worthy.–
Jeff Jones: Aha.
Rex West: –Which again is the most, I’d say in the work I do as a psychotherapist, it’s the most common story that I run into.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. The negative self talk.
Rex West: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: A little voice.
Rex West: Yep.
Jeff Jones: I’m not worthy. I’m not enough.
Rex West: Yep.
Jeff Jones: Who do I think I am to blank, blank, blank.–
Rex West: Not lovable.
Jeff Jones: –Yep.
Rex West: –Yeah. And it creates this framework and this perspective that we want to call it, this paradigm that colors everything for the individual that’s there.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: So no matter what they do, and no matter how they’re loved, no matter how people support them, it always goes back to that. That’s at the bottom of everything.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: But when I work with my clients and I have to do this work with myself as well, what I tell my clients is, that a story. It’s a really good story. And it’s a story that’s based in fact, but it is a fiction. And the way I tell it is, you wrote the story, you know it inside out and you’re the only person who’s ever actually read the story, but you believe it 100%.
Jeff Jones: I love what you say that.
Rex West: Yeah. And so that when we go into life and then, I’ll speak for myself, when I go into life, that’s how I’m looking at everything.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Through that story.
Rex West: Right. So part of my dialogue with myself is: “If people only really knew.”.
Jeff Jones: Yeah (laughs).
Rex West: If they actually really knew the truth, that truth is actually it’s not true, but we convince ourselves that it is true.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah. So I love what you’re saying Rex, one of the things that, I mean, the way I frame this is, like a very basic, simple model that visual, because I like visual things.–
Rex West: It’s like belief systems from the past, and out of that comes our thinking and out of that, or thinking, or feeling, and out of that comes our behavior. And then out of that comes our feelings about our life situation.
Jeff Jones: And oftentimes that feeling reinforces these old beliefs.
Rex West: Let’s say, not often, the vast majority of the time. And so it becomes, it just becomes a cycle.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And we’ve become more and more entrenched in those beliefs, as those beliefs form our experiences of life. However they are, they color them so that we’re convinced that, you know, we aren’t worthy, that the world is unfair.–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: –I ever get your break, bad clients and quoting clients right now, and the past week saying: “Yeah, life isn’t fair. I can’t catch a break”. I’m like: “Really? Okay. Alright. Is that really true?, Is it really true?” Right. And I definitely want to talk about how it got to this place, but I just want to say one thing that happens, because that’s so foundational. It’s happening in the earliest stages of development.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Rex West: –That our system perceives it as a threat to our very existence. When we gets challenged, when we,.
Jeff Jones: –When that story gets challenged, that’s how you’re saying?
Rex West: –Yeah. And when we engage with the world, which the world is just doing what the world’s doing, whether we like it or not, but when that story about ourselves gets challenged, we take it as– oh, I’m threatened.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: –Which reinforces this story even more. See, I was right. I proved it, and then it becomes this ongoing self fulfilling prophecy over and over and over again.
Jeff Jones: Right. And I love the way you said something like: “See, I proved it.” (laughs)–
Rex West: Yeah, I’m right, I’m right. They’re all wrong.
Jeff Jones: –And the Ego goes, yeah, I really understand this stuff.
Rex West: –Yeah. Because in my perspective, the ego’s main job is just to protect us.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. The Ego is not a contest from hurt.
Rex West: Yeah, ego’s not a problem.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: There’s a lot of clients actually in Boulder, Colorado come in thinking: “Oh, I got to somehow go beyond my ego, get rid of my ego, destroy my anger.” I’m like: “Okay, how are you going to actually do that?” Right.–
Jeff Jones: (laughs).
Rex West: –And actually, if you let it, it actually serves a really important role and function, which is to protect you in the world.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah, right.
Rex West: –As we, over the years, we learned how to manipulate that and really mess that up, so that it does feel like there’s this thing called the ego that’s somehow bad, or evil, or harmless.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So do you want to say a little bit more about yourself and how you got where you’re at now, like, and what drew you to be a therapist and all that?
Rex West: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting story, I don’t know about anyone else.–
Jeff Jones: Of course, (laughs) I think it’s an issue.
Rex West: –I come from a family of educators. My father was a professor at CU for 45 years. My mom was a teacher, school teacher. Some of my grandparents were teachers as well, so I resisted for a long time. Even as my sister became a teacher and an edge and lifelong educator, and took all these various paths, and then finally went, Oh, you know what? I think I actually really love education, I love learning, I love teaching, and I love kids.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: So I went, I came back from my world adventures and came back to Boulder, and got a master’s degree in education at CU. And I was a teacher for 20 years in elementary education.
Jeff Jones: Really?
Rex West: Yup.
Jeff Jones: I didn’t know that. Rex.
Rex West: Yeah. So that plus my experience of growing up in my family, that was hugely foundational for my understanding of families and family systems. Because when your teacher, you are working with the individual child, but they are a part of the system, that is a huge part of education.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: And I really worked continuously throughout my whole career to bring the families into, in a healthy and involved way into the process of our children’s education. Because some families want to do that too much.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And some families would be like: “I’m dropping my kid off. It’s your job now.”.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. I liked the way you frame that. Some families want this, some families want this whole, and this big continuum between there. So I’m guessing that when you decided to leave teaching and go into counseling or therapy, that was a big loss for some of the students for the, I mean, because not every teacher approaches it. Like what you just said.
Rex West: Yeah. And then I was often told that, that woke me up was the connection I have with children and families, and I still–
Jeff Jones: And so sit down.
Rex West: –with people, and those people run into me in this, in the store on the street and go: “Do you remember us?”
Speaker 4: And sometimes I’m like: “Yes, I do.” Other Times I like: “Uh?” (laughs) Then they say: “You were the one teacher, you’re one teacher, that our son, or daughter always talks about.” Just Sunday night, my son, I went to a movie and there was one of those kids with her family.–
Jeff Jones: Wow.
Rex West: –She’s now this amazing young woman. And both are parents like: “You were the one.” You know, this kid was absolutely brilliant.
Jeff Jones: –Oh my gosh, yeah. That’s always nice to hear that because I’m passing so oftentimes, you don’t get that feedback.
Rex West: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: So how did you make the transition from teaching to a psychotherapist?
Rex West: So I’d be interested to hear if anyone who hears this has a similar road. I don’t think they do. So part of my route has to do with head injuries, which is where the areas that I specialize in my psychotherapy practice working with people’s head injuries. I have a lifelong history of head injuries. And in 2009 while I was teaching, I had a few more and it caused this huge dramatic shift for me. It’s really literally the neurological straw that broke the camel’s back. And I was really starting to realize, I can’t be in a room full of children anymore. It was completely overwhelming to my system, and a word I learned later in my psychology master’s degree. I was becoming dysregulated on a regular basis based on how compromised my brain. And neurology already was, right–
Jeff Jones: Got it.
Rex West: –a nervous system was already compromised through so many head injuries. So in 2009, I had two within a month of each other. There weren’t that bad of head injuries, but they literally were constants hold down and all that.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: So previous to that, you just back up a bit. Hipping kind of not dissatisfied with working with kids, but the politics of being a teacher.–
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Rex West: –Oh my God. It just seemed like it got worse and worse every year. So I was like, I really don’t want to do this anymore. And at the same time, I got people who really cared about me and some people who didn’t even know me, who were just in a completely unsolicited way they say: “You never thought about being a therapist.” And my response always was: “No, that’s like the last thing I’d want to do.” (laughs).
Jeff Jones: –(laughs).
Rex West: –Until this all came together. And they went: “Oh.” And it happened to also be very fortunate to be married to her. Absolutely beautiful, and lovely, and creative woman who is watching me and trying to support me through this, in a difficult period said she works at Neuropathy. And I just said: “You know, because I worked there so long, you can actually, basically enter there for free.” (laughs).
Jeff Jones: –Really.
Rex West: –I get a degree and I was like, okay, what kind of degree could I get? And so, all that went together, oh, psychotherapy.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah. Oh my gosh, Rex. What are unique pathway.
Rex West: –Yes, which in that process I learned, and through this other element that I want to put in, I’m a long time meditation practitioner.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Rex West: –I’m in my current practice is the same practice through those years of meditation and this process that I just laid out, part of what I learned for myself and nobody has to agree with me, it’s fine. But the way I look at the world, is around us all the time with unlimited possibilities.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: –Unlimited.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: –But those possibilities only become, we become aware of them when we’re ready in our lives to go– oh, a psychotherapist? Oh, okay. Hey, I thought it actually makes sense before that moment.
Jeff Jones: –People said it and it really did make sense.
Rex West: –And literally I would say: “Why would I want to do that? (laughs) I never wanted to be a psychotherapist, right?
Jeff Jones: –Wow, in a way you went kicking and screaming.
Rex West: Yeah, until I was aware of, Oh yeah, this is this amazing possibility that makes sense with everything that I’ve experienced, and that I happened to choose this amazing woman who can offer me this gift.
Jeff Jones: –Right, right, right, right, wow. And so one thing I’m hearing in your story, Rex, is who’s a transformation? Like a transformation that happened for you?
Rex West: –Through hitting my head. So becoming a headbanger can actually lead to transformation.
Jeff Jones: –(laughs).
Rex West: –I wouldn’t never recommended to anyone.
Jeff Jones: –Right, right, right, right. But it’s so often times, you know, people don’t really voluntarily go into a transformation. There’s some adversity that happens in their life, and they rise to the occasion. You know, they use their resources, whatever’s available for them and you know, then oftentimes can see the world differently, see their situation differently, and kind of get out of this belief system cycle. But this story kind of thing. And to start to rescript that a little bit.
Rex West: And again, the main driver in my case, and there’s a lot of elements there, but it was this neurological almost like disaster that happened for me. Cause I literally, I had to take a leave of absence from my job and to take a semester off from my graduate program because they just, I literally transformed as a person, and I couldn’t be in public places. I couldn’t be around people, I couldn’t deal with change. I got so easily overwhelmed that Mike, was really hard. It was hard for me, and it was hard for especially my wife, and son, and my dog because I wasn’t the same person like that. And that lasted for quite awhile. And given my situation, I have what’s called a cumulative brain injury. I’ve had so many, too many head injuries that’s worked into this cumulative state.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: But I will say, out of all that, it dramatically shifted how I am in the world, how I perceive the world. Some of which, I will be totally honest with you, Jeff, absolutely incompletely sucks.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: Everyday, part of those I get chronic migraines.–
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh, wow.
Rex West: –Yeah. They would not wish on anyone.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: But it’s part of my reality.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Rex West: That’s on the one hand that sucks and on the other hand actually freed me up to be in the world in a different way, changed my meditation practice, changed my way of being with people, my ability to accept things and let go of things.–
Jeff Jones: And to prioritize your values, and really say no when you need to say no. .
Rex West: Yes, yeah, I’m still working with that one, but I’m so much better at the minute.–
Jeff Jones: Well, the other thing that I’m thinking specifically from the standpoint of addiction in the family is traumatic brain injury in the family, like the family use to know one person and then they’re like living with a stranger and, so the relationship that I’m seeing between traumatic brain injury in the family, and addiction in the family, is the families looking at their loved one going, oh my God, they’re not the same. What’s going on here? How do we relate to them? How do we deal with that?
Rex West: Yeah. I would even say just in my experience and my perspective, the systems perspective I was really, earlier, is that just the process of a child growing, especially when they get to that huge second most important transformation in terms of development in the neurological system, adolescence.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, right. How old are your kids?
Rex West: My son’s 17.–
Jeff Jones: Oh my God.
Rex West: –He’s awesome, and he’s not who he used to be. You know, those elements are there. He’s becoming who he’s becoming all the time.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: But a lot of parents, when that happens, they’re like, oh my God, I don’t know what to do with my kid anymore. They— like, and especially because the hallmark of adolescence is individuation.
Rex West: Right.
Rex West: Which is the very process of separation.–
Jeff Jones: That’s our job.
Rex West: –Exactly, that’s the words I use. That’s what they’re supposed to be doing right now, it’s their job. They’re supposed to be rejecting you. Doesn’t mean they don’t love you, although that gets confused cause parents push back.
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Rex West: It doesn’t mean they don’t love you. They’re doing exactly what they’re supposed to be doing. Let’s explore how we can support them in doing that.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And especially as a parent, I’ll speak from my own experience as a parent, it is, to me, there are many paradoxes about being human basis of the dual nature of our minds, right?
“There are many paradoxes about being human basis of the dual nature of just our minds.” –Rex West Share on XJeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: A dualistic thinking, but as a parent, especially I think for Moms, but as a father as well, we create these beings, we bring them into the world, we nurture them, we protect them, we cherish them, we love them. And as soon as that child comes out of the womb, we also have to be laying on the couch. And for me, the perfect metaphor for most parents when they start to get it is a child learning to walk.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: Because every pirate wants their child to walk, right? They understand that that’s so important. And yet it is this process of letting go. And you ever seen that? And if it starts to walk, it’s like we’re hugging, we’re holding, we’re getting ready, and we actually let them go and then they tip out and literally they go, Oh, I’m walking as soon as they did at that point, they fall. And what do they do as soon as they fall?
“Every parent wants their child to walk. They understand that that's so important. And yet, it is this process of letting go.” –Rex West Share on XJeff Jones: They may cry, but they’d get up eventually.
Rex West: And usually they go straight back to mommy or daddy who’s ever there, right?
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: And then they’re like, okay, let’s try again. And then they took a few more steps and boom, fall. And this is a process of gradual release, right?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: Which to me is such a great metaphor for our job as parents.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: Love them, to hold them, protect them, and to support them in doing what they’re supposed to be doing, which is changing, which brings us back to adolescence.
Jeff Jones: Right, and that, I mean what you described so eloquently there is kind of, in my mind like, optimal best case scenario and you know, it isn’t, you know like, if I were to learn to drive, I have to get a driver’s license, well to be a parent, there’s no real requirements. There are great parenting classes out there, but it’s like, not everyone learns what you just so eloquently described.
Rex West: But we all go through a training course, we all go to training courses.
Jeff Jones: Tell me.
Rex West: Childhood.
Jeff Jones: (laughs).
Rex West: That’s it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: Because in the process, we learn, because this is the interpersonal relational piece, we learn, especially through our parents. And the number is just the design of it too. It doesn’t always work that way. The design of it is male and female, although you can have same sex couples. Although just my experience, it’s usually they followed along. One of them picks the female role, and one of them takes the male role, because that’s the biological design. So out of that, we learned how to relate to, at least two elements that we will encounter in life. And in that we learn about how to parent, not whether it’s right or wrong, what our parents do, we learned their way.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, right, right, right.
Rex West: And that becomes our way.
Jeff Jones: So I mean, the thing that I, that is screaming out to me, you know, the parent’s role is to create optimal conditions for that child who’s going from, you know, youth and you know, from boy to man, or girl to woman are in this adolescence, like the container that the parents create. They create the environment, and that environment actually contributes to that child’s brain development and how they react, and the stories they come up with, about their own experiences.
Rex West: Right, and I’d say beyond the stories, it’s how parents based their own experiences of being a child in their family system.
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Rex West: So they bring all that in.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: Again, it’s not whether it was good or bad, it’s just what it was. And in my experience, especially the people I work with in my practice, the vast majority, probably 99% of the people come into this office, those examples that their parents brought into parenting were not especially healthy. And they bring that in, not because they’re bad people, or they’re mean spirited, or they’re not good parents, but that’s what they know.
“It's how the parent based on their own experiences of being a child in their family system. And they bring all that in. Again, it's not whether it was good or bad, it's just what it was.” –Rex West Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And so that informs them in their parenting, and unless they have some way to learn, or they meet someone, or they get some other example, or some people like my wife. She didn’t really have the best examples and she just found her own light towards, she’s the most amazing, loving, caring mother.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: She’s just brilliant at it. Some people can find their own way. Most people cannot, because that neurological imprint of your will, of what we learned from our parents is so deeply foundational. That combined with, I’ll go back to what I mentioned earlier, that combined with this story that we make up in that context, this is the context for them that is worthy.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: Which actually just want to clarify again, that’s not because our parents overtly tell us, Jeff, you’re not worthy, although some parents do.
Jeff Jones: Right, right, right, right, but that’s the message.
Rex West: It’s the child interpretation, and it could be that the parents are really loving and caring, but that individual’s interpretation of their needs getting met or not met. And an important piece I just want to mention here in terms of developmental theory is that, most of this is happening in the earliest, and by far the most important stages of development for human beings, which is the ages between zero and three. The challenge with those is that one, it’s precognitive, real cognitive abilities have not come online on the brain, because the brain isn’t developed yet.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: Number two, in large part, a lot of the foundational pieces are happening when it’s pre linguistic, there aren’t even words to attach to an associate with what’s actually happening. That’s why you’ve probably found this experience, which I think can lead us into start talking about addictions, because the language for it is the Semitic languages, the language of the body. That’s the foundation. That’s why when people struggle, what their doing is they’re trying to calm, or deal with the regulation manage in their nervous systems, and why when they come in, most of their complaints, they talk about their minds. But when you take a little bit, they’re somatically based because they’re so old.
Jeff Jones: Right, yeah.
Rex West: And they’re so, the way I talk about it with my clients is they’re almost hardwired, and I say almost because there’s an ability for us to work with them. We can actually change those things, nobody can. So I don’t think that’s possible. What we can change is how the adults that I work with adolescents as well, or how they deal with what they already kind of, I’m not changing you. I can’t, I could support you in dealing with, which I already got. I can’t change that, right?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: That’s this foundation of these. Last thing I want to add in terms of my own experience, there’s two elements of learning about addictions in particular, cause that’s our topic. One was, as a teacher, I’ve taught all the way from kindergarten to fifth grade, mostly fourth and fifth graders. What I learned was, I loved all the kids I work with, but I was especially drawn to the kids who really struggled, and some of my strongest bonds with those kids. And definitely when I see those kids today, it’s like, oh, they like light up because they’re like, yep, there he is, right?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: So not all, but a lot of those kids were kids who just didn’t fit for a variety of reasons into what is actually a very narrow educational system. And I worked at a really progressive school for the most part. Most of my schools were progressive and you know, much more experiential that these kids, and more often that they’re boys, they were put into four walls and told that they need to sit down, and they need to listen, and they need to do these two things that for most boys are not only challenging, but it doesn’t compute for them, which is to read and write all day long, and they would really struggle as part of my perspective goes. Another piece that I bring in, is just the biological, the biology of who we are.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: As males and females, and clearly there’s a lot of variation when you say males and females, but if we reduce it down to those basic elements, males and a large part, not completely, and I want to make a blank statement, but the biology of a male is in large part to be a hunter gatherer, and a female to protect, and nurture a child, bear and the race them, right? So these boys, they’re very biology and neurology is, they’re supposed to be outside–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: –hunting, gathering, digging, destroying, building, right. All of a sudden, there they are. And the system not able to deal with that. So you’re not the system gods.
Jeff Jones: I mean Rex, there’s a couple of different conversations that I would like to have with you on what you said, but I really want to get into the focus of this podcast.
Rex West: –Which I can tell you the system drug stuff, they prescribed really heavy duty intense, mostly medications that are designed to deal.
Jeff Jones: –So, we have diagnosis?
Rex West: Yes, and the diagnosis, not always, but usually is in the ADD, attention deficit disorder, or ADHD, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, which most people don’t get, those are two ends of a spectrum. ADD is much more, the neurological system is depressed and ADHD is elevated.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: So one is low , the other is high effect. Both ends get medicated with usually the same classes of medications. Most people know is like Ritalin type medication.
Jeff Jones: So, I mean I agree with you, they get diagnosed. And now, one of the most interesting kinds of concept and understanding that came to me was from Dr. Edward Tick, that I’ve been learning more and more about to, actually created soldier’s heart for PTSD. And one of the comments that he made like, in having soldier’s heart for 18 years or so, every year he would go over to Vietnam. And one of the things that he noticed is, even though Vietnam is a country that has been overpowered by other more powerful countries for over 2000 years, there is no long term PTSD in Vietnam, and one of their situational PTSD, but they have communal healing. And one of his learning points, or a learning point that I got from him is that our, in this country, our focus on just what you said, the individual diagnosis as opposed to acknowledging a human experience and struggle, and suffering like you laid out with what happens with little boys, you know. Instead of acknowledging a human experience, we diagnose individuals and essentially what that does from the standpoint of Dr. Edward Tick is, it puts denial being like, in his words, I think it was something like, the number one disease in this country.
Rex West: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: Denial of our own impact, and from his perspective he’s saying that: “All of us in the country are traumatized.” And it isn’t like it’s just happening. We’re like well into it. And so you know, that kind of acknowledging, that acknowledgement of what our life is, what our situation is, what’s the environment that’s around us, what’s around that kind of thing. What can we influence?, What can we not?, Where do we draw boundaries? You know, where do we kind of say to open up, and like I want to take a risk here, or learn more about this. So huge conversation here, and I’m realizing like in this podcast, I’m wanting to try to focus on the experience that I know that you have and glean from you. Some understanding that would be helpful for family members who are listening to this. So, I know that you have a background in residential treatment, and have some perspectives on that that you’ve shared with me over the last year or so, and various breakfast conversations, or something like that. And so, I’m curious from your experiences there, are there like, two or three things that stand out for you from the standpoint of the families role. Learning points that families can hear from this, that they may be able to hear what you say and look at their situation a little bit differently?
Rex West: Sure, yeah. I would say with what you said about Dr . Tick, is that correct?
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And his theory is that, denial completely agree, I would end there. There’s also a denial of responsibility.
Jeff Jones: Sure.
Rex West: Of which our kids learn.
Jeff Jones: Right, kid’s model.
Rex West: Yeah, so yeah, I was extremely fortunate, it blast that pretty much. As I graduated, I was offered a job, which doesn’t happen that often for people in the program I came from, which is a great program at a treatment facility here in Boulder, Colorado called Transitional Independent Living Program, which means, the main feeder for that kind of a program is a wilderness program.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: The way I like to think about that is, it’s a cultural, and societal, and electronic stimulation deactivation, and starvation.
Jeff Jones: Wilderness.
Rex West: Wilderness. yes, so that people can totally disconnect from that stuff, so they can actually get clear about what’s actually going on for them.Which is not for everybody, but for a lot of people who experienced that as extremely profound and life altering. A lot of the mass, the majority of people when they come out of a wilderness program, they don’t know how to re engage in the world. The one option is this type of program I worked in, which is called Transitional Living, and so I worked in a facility that’s here in Boulder, and so this is mostly with 17 through 25, 26 years old. I’ve worked in the men’s program and also women’s program.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: I engaged with both men and women, mostly men. And as I started working with them, these were mostly really affluent families. Sometimes astoundingly, I thought like, wow, I know people like that existed. I’d never really met them before, but here they are. And these, when I would talk to. Especially these young men and young women, and I also had to do a form of family therapy usually on the phone, or when I really learned about these young individuals and their family systems, I went: “Huh, there’s so many patterns here, this is really interesting.” And one of the patterns I got was, I put together my experience of being a teacher of these young children who would struggle, became medicated. And the stories I would hear from these individuals who, not all of them, but the vast majority were dealing with mind-blowingly intense addictions. Like, sometimes it took me and I feel like, sometimes I’ve kind of jaded because of the life I’ve lived, which is a great life. But sometimes I was like: “Wow, that’s incredible. I’d never even thought of that.” Or “Wow, that’s amazing. And you survived that?” And I saw this crystal clear threatened, especially for these young boys where, as children they couldn’t deal with the system. They’re put into the school system and they would freak out. The system would medicate them. Well then they learn pretty quickly, oh, when I take this thing, I feel different. Not necessarily better.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: I just felt different. And over time, especially because this is what psychiatry does, it experiments that work. That’s one of the patterns that you saw that children learned that if they put something in their mouth, they would feel different than something like a pill or whatever. And then the system taught them how to manipulate it.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: By changing their medications. So eventually these were all really smart kids. They would go: “Oh huh, I can do that. I can only change the levels that how much I take. Oh. And I feel different. More is better or more is worse. And there’s all these other ones. And if I eventually, if I take less, what do I do? Oh, I have all these.” And they start selling them.
Jeff Jones: I can’t help but think what you were saying before about, you know, it being their job individually, it being their job to empower themselves to kind of stand on their own two feet with medication. It’s like: “Hey, I can do this too.”.
Rex West: Yeah. And I can do it better than you all. I’m gonna make money. Or also it gives them power. I need my friends using this stuff.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah.
Rex West: And then it opens them to this whole other world which is adolescence, middle school. And then especially high school, they’re young individuals all of a sudden thrust into more of an adult world where everything is open to them.
Jeff Jones: And they go from the container of pharmaceutical medications to, you know, in the real world there’s so many different things that we do, or put in our mouth that will have an impact on how we feel. For instance, I had a cup of coffee this morning. I mean, that’s something that I do–
Rex West: I do, and yummy ice tea this morning.
Jeff Jones: –you know. But I mean all the different.
Rex West: –Exactly. Drugs or things that like refined like.
Jeff Jones: –I mean cocaine used to be like farmers still in Columbia. They would chew on the leaf.
Rex West: –All day long.
Jeff Jones: –come to this country, it’s refined over and over and over again. It’s crack cocaine and.
Rex West: –An insatiable appetite just can’t stop, yeah.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah. Like there’s many substances, like marijuana is a very similar thing. Like that dirt weed that I grew up with, you know, 2 to 5% THC, and now they’re shattering wax up in the 90’s and then there’s these youth that, you know, going back to the pattern that you illuminated that they’re individuating, and wanting to have their own power, and they want to feel a certain way. And like you were saying, they want to make friends, and they want to figure out how to navigate the world. And, Oh my gosh. So that was one of the patterns that you notice in this.
Rex West: Yup. And I would say in virtually all of these family systems, there was a lot of dysfunction in the family system itself. So even before the kids were made educated, well before they discovered how to manipulate the medications themselves, there were already things that they were developing on a neurological, on a sematic, so body-based, and on a psychological basis that were not especially helpful, which over time become the kind of things that modern medicine diagnosis as that’s a problem. But the major factor there, is the dysfunction within the system.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: And especially in this context of this population, again, these are a lot of really driven, super wealthy, super high level families that the parents in general didn’t have the time for the children, that their children needed to be healthy.
Jeff Jones: So one of the things that I, I mean I hear you saying is, one of your learning points here was really looking at and understanding the family system and–
Rex West: Yes.
Jeff Jones: –the dysfunction, and what is not working so well. And so, you know, one of the ways that I saw that whole thing is, to really understand the larger context and like those families, that mom and dad, like what environment did they grow up in. So, like the culture plays such a huge role and if we go back far enough, you know, rational thinking in the culture oriented around power and who has the power. So, I mean one thing that I like to do when I look at family systems is to assume that everybody’s doing their best, you know, and doing their best with the environment that they grew up with, with the resources they had, with the internal resiliency, the wiring, et cetera, et cetera.
Rex West: –It’s all relative.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: It’s all relative for the individual and their upbringing, their own family’s dynamic. It’s all relative, right? And to me, one of the key things I work with my clients, which comes out of my meditation practice in my teaching, especially in terms of Zen Buddhism, the root of all this is suffering and that suffering is relative. You’re suffering Jeff, is your suffering, and it’s no greater or less than than mine.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: Cause it’s your suffering just like mine is no better, no worse than yours. It’s my suffering.
Jeff Jones: So there will be suffering for everyone and that’s kind of acceptance.–
Rex West: Yes.
Jeff Jones: –Well, yeah, it’s part of being human. But also, I mean, part of the message I see in the culture is like, I don’t see that message. The message I see is that you can have it all, just do it, just you know, buy this, or get this, or do it this, this way or
Rex West: –And I’d say the other messages to take the seat of individuation is individualism.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: –You know that which is the basis of, the cultural basis of this very society and country that we live in. And I want to make that back to this family system thing. What it does is it creates denial of the strength and validity, and the vital critical importance of a healthy family system. And in my opinion, that’s been so lost in our whole system, especially in terms of politics from all sides, that in large part is the foundation of so many of the challenges and issues that we face as a culture.
Jeff Jones: –And that aligns with what I was saying about Dr. Edward Tick.
Rex West: –Yes.
Jeff Jones: –Perspective of the reason why Vietnam has essentially no PTSD is because they have communal healing.
Rex West: Which many cultures in the world that traditionally that’s what they are.–
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: –For better for worse, they’re becoming more and more based on our model, because our model is also based in materialism, which captured the human mind and nervous system like nothing else that was–
Jeff Jones: Yes.
Rex West: –most of them is ingenious.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. I mean one of the things I remember I, and I think it was Dr. Gabriel Montay saying:–
Rex West: One of my heroes.
Jeff Jones: –“If like someone tried to design a culture and environment that would be the most of an incubator, or Petri dish for addiction. We couldn’t have done a better job.”.
Rex West: –No, that’s.
Jeff Jones: –It’s something like that. Like, oh my God.
Rex West: –And I want to take what you just said and expand it out because it’s not just substance addiction, it’s addiction to technology. It’s an addiction that you and I live in Boulder, Colorado always rated as one of the healthiest cities in the world, or at least in America, it’s here, it’s an addiction to exercise and over-exercise.
Jeff Jones: –So attention to image.
Rex West: –And I’d say, to me, one of the most critical ones, and oftentimes in dealing with substance addiction, once we scratch the surface, this is what I find, it’s food addiction.
Jeff Jones: –Aha.
Rex West: –Food addiction is one of the most, all pervasive and most common, and most powerful forms of addiction. And I find it’s often times the root of whatever addiction is out there because very early, we all learn a lot of people experience, I don’t really have control here, but one thing I have control over is what I put in my mouth.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: That’s it. I’m not going to put anything else in, or I’m just going to take in as much as I can.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah, or overweight and kind of build up this thing around me to protect me.
Rex West: –And deny my own validity, my own strength, my own vitality.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Rex West: –My own ability to interact with them, or engage with other human beings.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah. So Rex, I’m realizing, you know, where we’re at in this podcast conversation, and I’m realizing we could have a number of these conversations.
Rex West: Maybe we have to (laughs).
Jeff Jones: You know, build on these breakfast conversations and this recorded conversation, but from where we’re at right now, are there like, you know, two or three messages that you really want to underline for families? I mean, you know families really well that are struggling with addiction specifically with an adolescent. And if you were to say something to them, two or three things like early on to help them, you know, look through a different lens, or to recognize some new factors that can help them take the next step. I’m gonna kinda like enter, this is kind of an impossible question, but–
Rex West: Sure.
Jeff Jones: –I’m sure you could talk
Rex West: –You like possible answers then? (laughs)
Jeff Jones: –We’ve been talking an hour about it and I’m going to have to lay low (laughs).
Rex West: So you’re doing what I usually do in sessions, so I gotta manage it all. I like being on this.
Jeff Jones: I’m sure you do, (laughs) and I’m being aware of the time and so two or three things, the bullet pointed version (laughs).
Rex West: Yup, yeah. So these are, I think the basis and extremely critical, and I think there are actually, these have to happen or else the families will just keep repeating what they’re repeating. And most families when they come to you and they come to me, all of them are living in some sort of hellish realm that it’s awful. It’s not working. So number one, love yourself, that is number one.–
Jeff Jones: And how can they do that?
Rex West: Love your self, number two, love your kid or kids. Those are the most basic and fundamental things. Which brings me to number three, which is prioritize your family, your family as a whole. And when no matter what you’re pairing is, unless there’s only one parent left, right? Sometimes the parents died, whatever disappeared, whatever. Also prioritize the couple. Is your relationship with your partner–
“Love yourself of is number one… Love your kid/kids. Those are the most basic and fundamental things… Prioritize your family, your family as a whole.” –Rex West Share on XJeff Jones: The Marital Dyad.
“Prioritize the couple... Do you work; you have to do your work.” –Rex West Share on XRex West: –Yes, yes, extremely important. So all that leads to, do you work, you have to do your work. Because so many of the families I engage with, they think the problem, and the only one who needs to do the work is what’s called the IP, The identified patient, which is the kid. And the kid most, almost all of these kids I work with. And here’s to your experience, there’s different ways I say it, but they become like the truth tellers in their family.
Jeff Jones: –Absolutely.
Rex West: They actually play out the dysfunction in their family, which can be, you know, they’re hard to get along with, or angry all the way until they’re violent and they’re addicted to heroin. Right.
Jeff Jones: Okay.
Rex West: All right. But it’s, the kid is not the problem.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: I get it’s problematic what they’re dealing with. It’s the whole system, and within the system, if not everybody does their work.
“The kid is not the problem… It's the whole system.” –Rex West Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And there’s many ways to do it, but my biased opinion, I’ll say I’m biased, is to do deeper psychological work.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Rex West: Individually, is not an example of a family.
Jeff Jones: So let me say I, when I listened to you, I hear my own kind of optimal naivete kind of outlook, because what I hear you saying is, that’s the ideal world. That’s optimal, but not everyone can afford that therapy, or not everyone believes that they need it. And so I’m kind of thinking, what are some baby steps? Like I’m aware of some, but like what are, are you aware of any kind of like small steps that people could take to start to change the system? Whatever their system is like.
Rex West: Sure. Although we’ll say that for most people, because of their own upbringing and their own dynamic in their family system, and then the system they have with their partner and their children.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Rex West: Trying to change those patterns without someone helping them and guiding them is doable. Sure, and it’s really, really, really hard.
“Trying to change those patterns without someone helping them and guiding them, is it doable? Sure. And it's really, really, really hard.” –Rex West Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah, I would say that. Well, I’ve interviewed people on podcasts who have done it themselves.–
Rex West: I’ve put them in the class of my wife, remember I said about my wife earlier?
Jeff Jones: –However, like when I say they’ve done it themselves, they’ve done it over many years of being engaged, and ride around, and learning, and like research, and look things up and talk to people, and make phone calls, and you know, they’re out there really trying to learn more from the standpoint of doing nothing, and me bringing my son to your treatment center: “Here, just fixed Johnny.” Like– “we’re fine here. He’s a problem. Just fix him and give him back to us in 90 days fixed.” You know, that is like a waste of money.
Rex West: –Large waste of money, waste of time.
Jeff Jones: –Like it’s the larger addiction treatment industry, I guess is one way to say it. But the system of care in our country is set up in a way that reinforces these unrealistic expectations for families. And it’s not families fault. And it’s unfortunate and it really irritates me. And you know, so I really, you know, multiple pathways to individual and family recovery. Like I’m a big supporter in that. And yeah, there’s many conversations that we could have here. Rex. So the takeaways that I heard were, one is that you noticed like affluence and money can have an impact on how families see addiction, deal with addiction
The system of care in our country is set up in a way that reinforces these unrealistic expectations for families.” –Jeff Jones Share on XRex West: –But all families are no family’s immune to this kind of issues.
Jeff Jones: –And then patterns, the patterns that we kind of went so in depth with, and then, you know, the family system and like what’s functioning, what’s not functioning and more of the addiction goes up to the less functioning that happened. So, I mean there’s no silver bullet here and I really appreciate your having this conversation and really trying to be concise about like, next step messages that can help families. And I really want to honor you laying it out there, this is the best thing that can be done for people to love themselves, love their kids, do their own work. You know.
Rex West: –Sometimes the thing they prioritize, the couple of dyad
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: –I would add in, so just you said, well is there, are there actual steps they can take on their own? I’d say yes. One is to learn how to be an effective listener so you can actually really listen to your kids.
“Learn how to be an effective listener so you can actually really listen to your kids.” –Rex West Share on XJeff Jones: Yeah.
Rex West: And there’s a lot of ways to do that, but I prefer more of an active listing model, which my main source of training for that is nonviolent communication of the plugin.–
Jeff Jones: I see the book on your shelf over there.
Rex West: –It’s brilliant, and
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Rex West: –over the years I’ve come up with some kind of my own tweaking and version of it. But the foundation of that, the training of that, is one of the most brilliant things I’ve ever encountered.
Jeff Jones: –I got involved with NBC Evac in the late nineties.
Rex West: Martial and the puppets.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah. And it was in a practice group around Boulder and–
Rex West: Andrew Marshall?
Jeff Jones: –and oh, I did numerous trainings with him and actually I use that model. I did mediation for like 12 years and I use that model in early on with mediation, and yeah. So can you let people know how to get a hold of you to learn more about you?
Rex West: Certainly, yeah, yeah. My practice is called Ground Counseling, and they work with individuals, couples and families. When I work all the way from adolescence through, my oldest client right now is in her late 70’s. I also, as I said, I do brain injury work, I support people’s brain injuries, TBI.–
Jeff Jones: I filed that away back here.
Rex West: –Which part of your brain?
Jeff Jones: –(laughs).
Rex West: So TBI and mTBI, which is really more common traumatic brain injury. One of my greatest passions is grief work. So it’s really informative and foundational for what I do. So I specialize in grief work as well. So my practice again is called Ground Counseling, and you can find me on the web at www.groundcounseling.com, and absolutely beautiful websites. So please visit and get in touch with me whether they just want to ask me a few questions about what I was talking about, or you’d like to come in for a consultation and explore the work I do.
Jeff Jones: All right, Rex, thank you very much.
Rex West: Always a pleasure. Thanks.