54: Mary Gordon, Family Advocate/Educator/Author Shares the Key to Working with Families: Focusing on Their Intrinsic Strengths and Resiliency
“Take a look at and own the resiliency that you already have within you as a family member… whatever that strength is, that you honor that.” –Mary Gordon
Therapy sessions and medications help at a certain degree along the recovery process. But, more than that is needed. At a time when the family seems to be in the shipwreck of addiction, their strength and resiliency becomes their lifeboat. Today’s podcast centers on finding the soul of recovery by tapping into these assets and incorporating it into an artistic and holistic healing.
Highlights:
02:52 Finding Light in Recovery
08:55 The Dance Movement Therapy
15:09 The Families’ Intrinsic Strength
21:24 A Lesson on Resiliency
29:14 Freedom From Relapse
33:28 The Power of the Group Energy
Resources:
Moving Through the 12 Steps- A Natural Expression of the 12 Steps Using Dance Movement by Mary Gordon (Coming soon…)
Breathing Underwater and the 12 Steps by Richard Rohr
Addiction to Perfection: The Still Unravished Bride by Marion Woodman
When the Body Says NO: Understanding the Stress-Disease Connection by Gabor Maté
Get the family to pitch in and move to recovery! @TFRSolution interviews @dancema7 on how to do just that! #art #dancemovementtherapy #GestaltTherapy #trust #Strength&Resiliency Share on X
About Mary Gordon
A former teacher and counsellor celebrates her 35 years of sobriety. Mary Gordon spends the last three decades helping people around prevention, education and treatment of addictive disorders. Although she retired as a Director for Family Program at Betty Ford Center in 2015, her burning desire to help others continues as she opens her private practice, Inner Directions. Her mission to help families find their strength and resiliency continues.
Connect With Mary:
Email: dancema7@gmail.com/
Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/pg/DANCEMA7/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/dancema7
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mary-gordon-2b7b2634
Telephone: 760-333-6508
Quotes:
09:04 “…the arts appeal to the soul…” –Mary Gordon
10:10 “I always emphasize get them up, move a muscle, change your thought, get them up. Otherwise, they could be stuck in that negative spiral that any of us could get into.” –Mary Gordon
12:15 “When we hold something in our body for an extended period of time, it contributes to disease.” –Jeff Jones
18:15 “Families didn’t really understand how they could best be helpful. So a lot of times, they ended up doing what they had done.” –Jeff Jones
29:35 “Your family is not going to trust you but you don’t get to have a resentment about that. What you get to do is keep behaviourally, when you say something, you do something, … they’re not going to believe what you say; they’re going to believe what you do, and it’s going to take a long time to build that trust.” –Mary Gordon
35:08 “Take a look at and own the resiliency that you already have within you as a family member… whatever that strength is, that you honor that.” –Mary Gordon
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
Jeff Jones: So, welcome everyone. This is Jeff with the podcast Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery. And today I have a very special guest and I’m — I just had a conversation with her and so I’m meeting her for the first time and she is a seasoned professional in the field. Her name is Mary Gordon. She has a pretty extensive background that she’ll be able to tell us more about. One of the things that I really love about her background is that she has been a part of and is still working with the Betty Ford Center, the Betty Ford Children’s program and with families. And so I’ll be asking about that as well as other things here, but I’m very excited to introduce Mary Gordon. So, Mary, welcome.
Mary Gordon: Thank you so much Jeff. And it’s, it’s a pleasure and a privilege to be here having this conversation. Thank you so much.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, you are welcome, and so, if you could just introduce yourself to the people who are listening so they have a better idea of what you bring and who you are and that kind of thing.
Mary Gordon: All right, thank you. Well, I, as you has said, I have been working in the field for actually over three decades. So, that is a seasoned professional, and I started my work in addiction in the middle eighties out in the state of Maine, and I am also a recovering alcoholic. I just celebrated 35 years of sobriety, and so natural inclination, because I was formerly a teacher and counselor, was to then use those skills and gifts in the field of addiction. So, while in the state of Maine and this kind of bridges into my work at the Betty Ford Center, while, I was in the state of Maine, I was a consultant for the State Department of Alcohol and Drug Education. Back when we hit a lot of federal money to help families, communities work, learn about the disease of addiction and how they could implement a prevention and education program in Maine. It was a really a stellar program. It was — there were a team of us that work throughout the state of Maine, which is a very rural state, and we went to different communities. We would have a 10 day training for police officers, teachers, pastors, parents, grandparents, firefighters.–
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh–
Mary Gordon: I know, it was so beautiful, and what we would do would they would commit they’re particular school and community would commit to these 10 days.
Jeff Jones: Oh my goodness.
Mary Gordon: I know.
Jeff Jones: That’s unheard of now.
Mary Gordon: It is today, for sure. And they would come to Augusta, Maine where we had our headquarters and they would be trained for all those days in group work. They would be trained about what addiction. How it impacts families. What kinds of things they could do to prevent in their schools, and in their families, in their communities. How to identify. How to break through denial in the community. So, that way they owned it. It wasn’t the expert coming in and talking to them about it. It was an embracing of all the concepts in education and support for families impacted. It was a powerful experience. And so that being part of my background, along with doing individual or — I went to the Karen Foundation in Pennsylvania with my cohort and Gail Casey Foss, and we trained with Anne Smith, and Claudia Blackburn on–
Jeff Jones: Oh my god.
Mary Gordon: –Sharon Cruse, Sharon Wegscheider Cruse, Adult Children of Alcoholics Model.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. So, Sharon lives about a mile or two from where I live.
Mary Gordon: Wow.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: She’s one of the pioneers in the field.
Jeff Jones: She is an icon. I’ve had coffee with her and hear her stories. She’s an incredible pioneer in the field. You had quite an opportunity. Oh my goodness, Mary. That’s–
Mary Gordon: I know, I know it was, and I don’t think back then, Jeff, that I realized, you know, I was just in — I was immersed in the field. I was recovering myself. I was excited about what we could bring to communities. And so, after that experience of course, oh, and Gail and I did 14 week ACOA groups that would based on Sharon Cruse’s model. It was a powerful experience. And then we both went into individual practice. And then I finished my master’s program, and my master’s program was a kind of a generalist masters with an emphasis on dance movement therapy and counseling, and I had my license of alcohol and drug addiction license. I got it in Maine and Maine was a pioneer then in licensing, even before Borneo.
Jeff Jones: Oh Wow.
Mary Gordon: So then I applied certifi— I guess when we think about our journey, whatever you’re meant to do, you can’t avoid it. So, I just said — somebody said: “Why don’t you put your, your application to Betty Ford Center and see what happened?” I thought: “Okay, I’ll do that.”
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Mary Gordon: I did it–
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh–
Mary Gordon: And about two weeks after I did it. I called the, the man who ended up being my first supervisor David Bergdorf and I called and I said: “Did you get — this is Mary McCraw, calling from Maine? Did you get my application?” He said: “As a matter of fact, just today it got came across my desk.”
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Mary Gordon: (laughs) We talked, set up an interview. I started working at the Ford Center in 1999.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh.
Mary Gordon: Been there ever since, and it gave me the opportunity, you mentioned children’s program to work with some incredible people of all, ALL within the Organization of course. And I did some work out, a lot of work outside the organization, where I did presentations for the lawyers assistance program, and back when Mrs. Ford was still alive, we had a women’s conference that we co-hosted with Hazelton, before the merger. I did those and I did dance movement therapy at those as well as the impact of it on women.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, I mean when you said dance movement therapy the first time, that really caught my attention and it caught my attention because of the relationship that the body has with some of the challenges of well, really anyone, any human beings, obstacles that they have in their life, it’s easy for us to get stuck in our head. And when you said dance movement therapy, I’m thinking right away: “I Bet Mary knows something about kind of incorporating the body into an education program into skill building and practice.” Am I, right?
Mary Gordon: Yes, you’re right. And here’s the interesting thing about that because my original teaching background was in music and dance. So, I knew that the arts appeal to the soul without music, dance, art, we would be soulless.
“…the arts appeal to the soul...” –Mary Gordon Share on XJeff Jones: Right.
Mary Gordon: When I was working at — when I was the director of the family program, I always told my staff and they used it, sometimes they would resist but not really too often, cause they were very playful group and very talented. And I’m saying: “Okay, if you’re going to talk for 15 minutes, do 15 minutes only, not a half hour or 45 minutes. And then you get the family members up to move and get them in their bodies and out of their mind.” And I don’t know if you’re — I’m sure you’re probably familiar with Richard Rohr, the Franciscan Priest who does a lot of work with spirituality and he wrote a book about “Breathing Under Water, the 12 Steps in Spirituality”–
Jeff Jones: Oh Wow.
Mary Gordon: One of his little quips, which I use when I’m talking to family members and or patients, is that: “Addiction is about an opinionated mind, a closed heart and a well defended body.” So, if we were doing lectures at family program, I always emphasize, get them up, move a muscle, change a thought, get them up. Otherwise they can be stuck in that negative spiral that any of us could get into. But certainly family members in it.
“I always emphasize get them up, move a muscle, change your thought, get them up. Otherwise, they could be stuck in that negative spiral that any of us could get into.” –Mary Gordon Share on XJeff Jones: Right.
Mary Gordon: So, those three places are the places that are closed with addiction, the mind, body and the spirit.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Yeah.
Mary Gordon: So, my work at the Betty Ford Center continued and evolved and, you know, I was blessed to work with so many talented people. Whose expertise was a certain area and we blended well — we blended well. And so when I retired from Betty Ford Center just a few years ago, I continued my work. You know, you can’t avoid,
Jeff Jones: That’s what’s fun.
Mary Gordon: That’s right. So that led to — oh, and you mentioned about the body and dance. I’ll be publishing and it’ll probably come out this fall, a handbook for therapists called “Moving Through The 12 steps, A Natural Expression of the 12 Steps Using Dance Movement”
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh. So, that’s in the works, Jeff. So, we’ll hopefully that can come to fruition in the fall of the year. And just like a little side note, I always co-facilitated. I usually would co-facilitate with my counselors and family, if we had a family group and if we had a particularly intellectual family member.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: To get them back in their bodies. I would demonstrate for them how they could do movement as a way to open their heart.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Beautiful
Mary Gordon: That’s pretty powerful.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh, that’s incredibly powerful. I mean, I really see that so often times, you know, we hold like what we can’t face, what we’re not ready to deal with. We hold inside our body. And actually there’s a lot of research on this. This isn’t just, you know, my thought or your thoughts, and like when we hold something in our body for an extended period of time, it contributes to disease.
“When we hold something in our body for an extended period of time, it contributes to disease.” –Jeff Jones Share on XMary Gordon: Absolutely. And I’m sure you’re familiar with Marion Woodman. She’s from Canada, she’s Danceable and therapists, yin yang trained dance movement therapist, and she’s written a lot of books about, she has one in particular about perfectionism and what you just described, Jeff, about what we carry in our body is what she talks about in that–
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Jeff Jones: That the thawing out in the, you know, the, the ability to feel sensations in your body are trapped by trauma, addiction, etcetera.
Mary Gordon: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: I was also privileged to work with Dr. Nancy Wade O’Brien and she did work with trauma at Betty Ford Center with women.
Jeff Jones: -Aha.
Mary Gordon: She would always call me in to do the dance movement piece, and we would do ceremonies, and rituals, and movement together. And again, she would do the educational piece, and then it links so well, not up to move that people, they would weep. They would either weep, they would, you know, get angry. They would be afraid it would start to thaw out.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: They’re so tight in their bodies.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. That body piece is so powerful. The — you know, one of my mentors that I look to wrote the book “When The Body Says No” by Gabor Maté
Mary Gordon: Oh yes, yes.
Jeff Jones: The stress disease connection. And in that book there’s just a ton of research about just what we’re talking about. You know, that contracted patterns in the body. When we have something that we’re not ready or unwilling to or resistant or whatever the right language is there, but we can’t deal with it. We hold it in our body. And if we do that for years and years, we end up as specifically central like gut problems.
Mary Gordon: Exactly.
Jeff Jones: And so there’s a ton of research on this. I love that you have that expertise that you brought it into the Betty Ford Center, your work educating and working with families. And it’s so beautiful when I hear, you know, when families started to do, when people started to do this, they would weep. They like had emotional experiences., and that’s just like. And so one of the questions that I have is from your experience, how did you see that families could best practice and stay connected with that experience and whatever came up for them?
Mary Gordon: Right. Well, one of the ways, again, go back to prescriptions. The prescription that we would give to family members when they would leave the family program. And I still utilize this approach with families today or whether they’re coming to a workshop or presentation, whatever we’re at, every capacity, wherever they’re at. And the prescription would be healing of the body, the mind, and the spirit. Now, oftentimes again on the resilience factor, we would have them look at their strengths already and some of them would come in saying things like: “Oh yeah, I do yoga.” Or “I walk every day.” Or “I swim.” And we would honor that and say: “That’s part of the prescription. You will continue to do what you already are doing so well in that area and the body.” And then we would talk about Al Anon and we would talk about what your spiritual path would be, how it evolves for them.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Mary Gordon: So, being able to invite them, to take a look at where they’re already at, and where they’re already doing well. It has always been a theme that we did at Betty Ford and that I continue to do because it works best looking for people’s strengths. Now, that doesn’t mean we go into: “Oh well you’re going to be happy all the time.” Or “Oh well it’s always gonna work.” It’s being able to see the good in people, and their strengths in people. We can apply that to their recovery as a family.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. I love that.
Mary Gordon: Alright. I spoke earlier about Jerry [inaudible] and I’ve worked closely together. We’ve done workshops in different parts of the country together and not so much lately, but we have in the past and when my daughter was working there. Peggy, she also would do a lot of that reinforcement of the strengths of the children.
Jeff Jones: –Yeah.
Mary Gordon: That’s an important piece for the whole family structure.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: Not just the spouse, but the brothers and sisters. And the other thing is that, and I’m very proud of what she did, when she did blogs on the children’s program. In one of the blogs she did was talking about her own experience of being in a family of alcoholics where she — everybody in the family came into recovery at different times. And she honored that in a blog by saying: “Everybody’s journey is different. Everybody comes in a different state.”
Jeff Jones: Right.
Mary Gordon: And I think families need to hear that. You, I’m sure experienced that over and over again, Jeff, with your podcast and the way that you’re working with families.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: You can’t say: “Oh, you’re, you know, you’re further up the mountain than somebody else.” No, you just say: “We’re all in this together.”
Jeff Jones: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean with what I have done, I, you know, probably four or five years ago after seeing families in the, like I did intervention and still do a little bit–
Mary Gordon: okay.
Jeff Jones: –Intervention, but over and over I saw, you know, that families didn’t really understand, you know, how they could best be helpful.
Mary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: And so a lot of times they ended up doing what they had done. Like they ended up kind of doing the same behaviors after their loved one got clean and sober. They would do the same behaviors after that they did before.
“Families didn't really understand how they could best be helpful. So a lot of times, they ended up doing what they had done.” –Jeff Jones Share on XMary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: And that’s not unusual. And that’s pretty much what we all do and unless we learn something new.
Mary Gordon: Exactly.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. And so what I did is I put together a three phase program, and in the first part of that was the family map or genogram kind of thing, and one of the three or four generations. And then looking back with what were the strengths in the families, like what were the challenges that this family had four generations back or three or whatever, like immigration, like all of us immigrated from somewhere.
Mary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: You know, in less we have native American roots.
Mary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: –Immigrated from somewhere and immigration is, you know, hugely challenging. But then I would always ask, and that’s just an example, but I would always ask: “So, what were the strengths that the families, that your family had to deal with immigration.” You know–
Mary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: And oftentimes I would hear: “My family didn’t have any strengths.”
Mary Gordon: Oh yes.
Jeff Jones: And you and I both know that there are strengths or that person sitting in front of us would not be here.
Mary Gordon: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Looking at that, the strengths, I’m really glad to hear we’re on the same page with the empowerment of families.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Mary Gordon: Rather than the shaming of families. There’s already ashamed involved with this disease anyway
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh.
Mary Gordon: But then when you, you know, you start to look at what the strengths are and skill building. One of the things at the end of the week when we had a closing circle, they would, each member of the family, you know, when sometimes we’d have 45 people in the group, in the whole circle.
Jeff Jones: Oh goodness, yeah.
Mary Gordon: You know, they were broken up into small groups throughout the week, but they would be at the end saying, what’s your takeaway from this week? And it could be as simple as “I’m taking away hope.” , “I’m taking –” they’ve used the, you know, one of those things? But some people would say: “I’m learning to say no.”
Jeff Jones: Oh yeah, I mean that sounds so simple. But that is like one of the hardest things in the world and specifically for people who have like patterns their whole life. And maybe they got them modeled from a family member of just being the helper, being the caretaker of NEVER saying NO. I would never say no to my family, kind of thing.
Mary Gordon: Exactly. And we did a little lineup thing where we had, let’s say we had 12 on one side, and 12 on the other side and family members and we’d have them. One line would be asking the other line for our particular request: “Will you please go pay for the grocery bills or something like that.”
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: And the job of the other line was to say: “No” to the individual. And then they had to process how they felt when they were saying no, and most people would want to give a big long explanation.
Jeff Jones: Right?
Mary Gordon: They was saying no, and we would give them all kinds of support. No, as a complete sentence.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: They had fiercely, you can just say: “No.” , “No, thank you.” And they just said that, and that might be the takeaway for the week. I learned to say “No” and I learned to say it in a way, and then we would get phone calls usually about a week after saying: “Oh, I practice this.” So, sometimes it’s not all the information so much or the end of the disease as it is these, this is a skill that I’ve started to work on and it’s working well and I feel better about myself.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: Now that’s resiliency right there.
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh. Just the — you know, the thing about just saying “No”, that is such a powerful lesson and there’s so many different contexts, you know, and it isn’t like, I mean, what I’m hearing is you’re not giving a prescription of say “No” to everything. No, no, no, no, no kind of thing. But–
Mary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: But then it gets so — the learning they end up getting — I’m being a little facetious here, but they end up getting like a PHD
Mary Gordon: Yeah.
Jeff Jones: You know, boundaries, internal boundaries. And there’s like through this process, regardless of where their loved one is, there will be things come up that they will have to ask themselves: “Do I say no here? And if I say yes, what’s really behind that? Yes. And what’s really behind this? No.” And it’s such a beautiful ongoing, you know, challenge and piece of internal work for any family member. Really.
Mary Gordon: Yes. Yes. And you know the thing about, “No”, as a matter of fact, just yesterday I was talking to a family member about being able to say “No” in particular, she works with her husband. So, I said, here’s a way that you can do it that’s gentle. And yet still honors you and honors him and that is the request comes in and then your response could be if you choose NO — “If you need to know right now the answer is no. If you can wait, I need some time to think about it.” And I told her, you know, I said: “This is called a BOUNDARY. Without completely pushing away the requests.” Cause you may—
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah.
Mary Gordon: –Contain yourself. You may be able to say: “I can do that.” But NOT under pressure. And when you’re unable to say “No”, that’s a way that you can do it. And even if the person you’re responding this way to says: :Oh, What? Did you learn this in Al Anon or at your therapists or a family program.?”
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: Then you honor that by saying: “You know what? Thanks for recognizing I’m learning some new skills.”
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful.
Mary Gordon: –The KEY thing is about positive empowerment and about honoring people who are suffering–
Jeff Jones: Right, right.
Mary Gordon: And who need some things to replace what they’ve been doing. Like you described sometimes the old behaviors because they don’t have something to replace it with, or they’re afraid, or they’re ashamed, or they think it’s rote or the: “Oh, I’m just repeating something.” So, you know–
Jeff Jones: Yeah. That saying “No”, what I really like about your description there and the way like you can say: “Well, if you need to know now, the answer is no. If you can give me some time like I need to think about this.” What I really love about what you said there, Mary, is that so often times with addiction and I mean it’s like does not new information, but there’s a black and white thinking that goes along with it and it isn’t just about the individual at the epicenter of addiction in the family. It’s like that black and white thinking. What I’ve seen is it spreads to everyone around the epicenter, and actually — and I’ve been guilty of it myself in the past, but professionals can really go into black and white thinking.
Mary Gordon: Yes. Oh yes. We’re human
Jeff Jones: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean specifically if we’ve recovered a certain way and we kind of see this is the right way, et Cetera, et cetera. But your phrasing there was beautiful to acknowledge the gray.
Mary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: I need to think about this.
Mary Gordon: Right.
Jeff Jones: You know, and like if you want to know right now the answer is “No”, but like I need some time to really take this in and like honor, like my own decision making process, and own needs, and my own values and, the different, you know, factors that surround whatever the specific content is.
Mary Gordon: Right. Right. And you know, the lessons I’ve learned in my own recovery from my own children as they grew to trust me as a sober mother, and I was a sober absentee mother. I had them on weekends. And so the boundary thing was very, I remember my youngest daughter saying to me at one point, this was years and years ago, and I was really cautious spot my sponsor, my end when I was working in therapy and I also did my ACOA work over at Karen was to not say negative things about their father. Cause we had divorced, but what I, this one particular time I slipped cause I was human and I said something to my 13 year old and she said — this is a boundary. And I thought to myself: “Wow, this kid’s got good boundaries.” She said: “Mom, stop ragging on Dad.” (laughs)
Jeff Jones: (laughs)
Mary Gordon: How about that for a perfect boundary. It doesn’t happen to be all rehearsed. But this was coming from a young teen.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mary Gordon: Who also trusted me enough, because of my own recovery to say: “Speak the truth.”
Jeff Jones: Yeah. That is — I mean Mary, when I hear this — it’s just a beautiful example of, I mean the other thing that I’d like to shine a little bit of light on in your story is TRUST BUILDING.
Mary Gordon: Yes.
Jeff Jones: TRUST BUILDING, is such an important thing in families. And what I’ve seen oftentimes is that families will like, they’ll automatically want to trust right away. Like: “Oh my gosh, you just made it through that treatment program and here I want to do this for you and do this for you.” And you know, like: “I really want to let you know that I appreciate you and trust you.” And we both know that like that immediate kind of thing can be problematic and can put our loved one in a situation that’s more risky to where they like, have the keys to the car, or the credit card, or whatever it may be, you know? But, and that incremental trust building is so important. And I mean, so you’ve seen that, I’m guessing from both sides of the table.
Mary Gordon: That’s right. And on Monday when I did my lecture Monday, “Monday Was Freedom From Relapse” that was my lecture. But when we talked about the families briefly in my presentation, and I always engage that the patients in conversation, even though there’s 200 of them sitting there. But I said, just what you said, I said: “You know, your family is not going to trust you, but you don’t get to have resentment about that. What you get to do is keep behaviorally, when you say something, you do something, I’m going to meeting, go to a meeting, I’m going to my therapists, go to therapists. They’re going to not going to believe what you say. They’re going to believe what you do. And it’s gonna take a long time to build that trust.”
“Your family is not going to trust you but you don't get to have a resentment about that. What you get to do is keep behaviourally, when you say something, you do something, … they're not going to believe what you say; they're going to believe… Share on XJeff Jones: right.
Mary Gordon: The building. And then inevitably somebody will come up after the lecture. I remember this young guy coming up, he was probably in his late thirties and he said, I just don’t get why she doesn’t trust me now I’m in treatment. And I said the very same thing I said to them, cause, you know, half of the time they’re not really listening or paying attention or some of them are detoxing.
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Mary Gordon: You don’t get to tell her what she needs to do for her recovery.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: –That in family, because we’re the third party that has some objectivity.
Jeff Jones: Right.
Mary Gordon: You get to practice your program of recovery and change your behavior and be kind and loving to her. And that wasn’t what he wanted to hear. He wanted the solution to how to get his wife on board right away.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well. So, from what you’ve seen and done and your perspective, one of the things I’ve done is to create a program where family members can communicate with one another and they can go through a process together to where they can start to build trust. And one of the things I’ve seen is that often times they’re very separate and they’re separate for a reason. I get that.
Mary Gordon: –Right.
Jeff Jones: But at some stage it’s like I’ve seen where it can be really be helpful to have the forum, where there’s like facilitated communication. And so that’s something that I’m really big on. But when I say that, what I think about is seeing Jerry Moe speak, and he’s talking about the children’s program, and the children kind of at, towards the end of their time in the program, they’re empowered to have this facilitated conversation with their mom or dad and –. Oh my God, you know, just listening to Jerry and Jerry’s just, you know, so I mean empathetic with children and he’s so passionate and his energy and like just comes out. But like, I’ve gone into tears more than once.
Mary Gordon: Oh yes. Yes.
Jeff Jones: Listening to Jerry tell stories about that facilitated conversation. So,I mean I am big on trying to create opportunities for, you know, people to have new conversations, to see things differently, to share “Aha” moments to change, like the meaning of the story of past or our situation in the present or where we want to go as a family in the future.
Mary Gordon: Yes.
Jeff Jones: And just listening to you, Mary, I, you know, I’m all energized just because so much like every time you say something I’m going: “Oh my God, that’s beautiful.”
Mary Gordon: What you said something about the distance. The family members and getting them together and the facilitation of what Jerry does with kids in family program. We had the family members every day in a small group and two of those five days, the patients of those family members would come over and participate in the group and they would do a one on one non-confrontational, one-on-one where they would talk about them — you know, how I feel and we had a little formula we use.
Jeff Jones: Right, right, right.
Mary Gordon: It was all here and now because self therapy, it was, it was not what you did in the past or whatever. It was about being present for each other. Now we see embraces, and tears of course, tears of joy, tears of sorrow, the losses that come from addiction, but the ability to sit and, you know, as a counselor and also the program director, it was always a privilege at sitting in the mercy seat.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: The mercy seat. And you are the witness of this conversation between two people who have been so impacted by addiction that they couldn’t even speak to each other without perhaps yelling, or crying, or you know, the silent violence kinds of things. So, that was always very powerful, and it was powerful because the group was supportive of the two people who were sharing.
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah. The power of the group energy.
Mary Gordon: Yes. It’s like we co — we were co-creating as you do co-creating an environment where people felt safe, because if they don’t—
Jeff Jones: –Absolutely.
Mary Gordon: –Don’t feel safe they’re not going to talk in the group anyway.
Jeff Jones: Right. Right.
Mary Gordon: Regardless of what you do there.
Jeff Jones: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Mary, this has just been a great conversation. I want to go to the specific takeaways that you would like people to have from listening to this, and I think we’ve touched on some of them, but I just want to give you this opportunity and to help you kind of underline some of those points.
Mary Gordon: Okay. Well, I would say the first thing, takeaway that I would hope your listeners would receive from our conversation is — the ability to take a look at and own the resiliency that you already have within you as a family member, your perseverance, your gentle heart, your kindness, your thoughtfulness, whatever that strength is, that you honor that, that would be a takeaway from any family member.
“Take a look at and own the resiliency that you already have within you as a family member… whatever that strength is, that you honor that.” –Mary Gordon Share on XJeff Jones: Sure.
Mary Gordon: Second takeaway, would be that — a family member really, as if someone had cancer, diabetes, any other disease that they immerse themselves in an education around the impact of this disease on every member of the family, not just the addict, the alcoholic, but how everybody’s impacted and I think that’s important we still have — yes, we need to do the therapeutic process with folks later on as they’re moving through their own journey, but they need to be well informed about this brain disease.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: Well, I’m always excited, because as you I’m sure have experienced over the years the evolution of neuroscience, the evolution of the ways that we look at this disease. And I think just recently there was a group of doctors that — they did confirm this is a brain disorder — addiction disorder. And for some, I mean, you know, you and I know that and know that from our own experience, but also people who the current reality and the current education around addiction needs to continue to evolve.–
Jeff Jones: Yeah, absolutely.
Mary Gordon: Before you say: “Education and support and giving people hope and help.”
Jeff Jones: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much, Mary. This has been wonderful.
Mary Gordon: You’re quite welcome. It’s been mutually wonderful. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation.
Jeff Jones: Oh, so how can people connect with you or learn more about you if they would like to? I forgot to ask that question.
Mary Gordon: Ok. Well, first of all, I have an email, and people are welcome to put that. It’s called D-A-N-C-E-M-A-7 dancema7@gmail.com. I have my consulting business, which is just me and other folks that I work with it’s called the Inner Directions (https://www.innerdirections.org) and my phone number, I’m working on website is (760) 333-6508. So, that would be how they could probably — the email would be the best way to contact me and then I can give them information about workshops that I do around different locations.
Jeff Jones: Great–
Mary Gordon: I’ll be coming to Colorado sometime. (laughs)
Jeff Jones: (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. Well if you do, please look me up and–
Mary Gordon: –I will definitely.
Jeff Jones: And so your workshops are around California? Yes?
Mary Gordon: Yes. I have one coming up in September during recovery month. It’s called Woman I Am Renewal Day, and it’s all women recovering from addiction, mental health issues, grief, and transition. And it’s a way to celebrate using movement, and dance using drumming, ergotherapy.
Jeff Jones: Yeah.
Mary Gordon: Mary Gordon: And gratitude circles, and talking sticks. So–
Jeff Jones: –Right.
Mary Gordon: Mary Gordon: That’s coming up September 19th, and one of the locals treatment centers are going to host that. And then Denise Klein, your friend in mind, has hosted, I don’t know if this year, if we’re going to do another one up there, but we probably will. All right. Wonderful. Wow. Thank you. Thank you very much.