52: Geoff Laughton, Relationship Expert Shares His Views On Men, Addiction and Healing in Couples and Family Relationships
“One of the best aspects of healthy masculine energy is you do what needs to be done.”– Geoff Laughton
If you feel like your life is in a rut, don’t despair. It’s a good sign that you’re awareness and longing to connect is at work. Today’s episode is especially for those who desire to address the underlying issues within themselves, with their partner and with their family. Healing does not materialize in the form of temporary sobriety, rather in the context of continuous effort to grow. To do that, here are a handful of tips and a couple of helpful tools and opportunities that can help. Today’s episode does not only center on couples and families but to all the men out there who deal with the terror and embarrassment of getting help. It’s time to find your best man!
Highlights:
03:35 Helping Men Evolve
09:35 The Frontend With Men
12:31 Addressing Denials
20:39 Kids Can Tell
25:35 The Perfect Set Up for Codependency
31:54 The Apple Doesn’t Fall Far From the Tree
36:20 The Thrill With Men’s Groups
43:10 Healing the Inner Child
Resources:
Books
Building A Conflict-Proof Relationship by Geoff Laughton
The Evolving Man (A Community for Men)
Men deserve satisfying relationships and support after a hard day’s work. Join @TFRSolution as he spends his special day with a friend, @geofflaughton #theevolvingman #familysystem #recovery #roots #couples&individuals #supportgroup #bestmen Share on X
About Geoff Laughton:
Good men need a break! Geoff Laughton is amongst the individuals who believe that men need support too. The society demands hard work from them but seldom are they cared for. Geoff is an author and a relationship architect who works with couples and individuals. But more noteworthy, is his job working with men and helping them create the kind of lives that really resonates with their identity and purpose.
At an early age, Geoff saw the downside of living with a long line of family members who are alcoholics. This led him to his passion of helping others gain the relationship and life that they deserve. As a husband for 37 years and a father of two amazing men, Geoff is a living proof that this is possible.
Connect With Geoff:
Website: https://yourrelationshiparchitect.com
Email: http://geoff@yourrelationshiparchitect.com/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/geofflaughton/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BuildYourDreamRelationship/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/yourrelationshiparchitect/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/geofflaughton
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Yourrelationshiparchitect
Quotes:
18:05 “…every family is a system. And there are rules of the road for that system.” –Geoff Laughton
24:20 “In this slow, gradual, incremental process of addiction, the person who is in the epicenter of that, they are incrementally connecting more and more to that substance… then when more and more they connect with the substance, less and less they connect with people who were really important to them, and they have less connection internally with real parts of themselves.” –Jeff Jones
25:17 “The drinking does not create connection with people. It creates connection with more drinking and maybe people you drink with. That’s not real connection, because that’s connection where you’re mutually supporting each other’s disease.” –Geoff Laughton
34:47 “None of us, are addicted or not, we don’t change anything until it hurts more than it benefits. Then we’ll do something about it.” –Geoff Laughton
37:26 “One of the best aspects of healthy masculine energy is you do what needs to be done.” –Geoff Laughton
45:31 “It’s really, really simple to know if you have a problem. And that is, is that your life won’t be working well.” –Geoff Laughton
47:34 “It’s not just about stopping a substance, it’s more about looking at one’s life and committing to play in a bigger game.” –Jeff Jones
49:05 “The thing I want to encourage people to have, as a general rule, just a tip for healthy living as a human being, is have at least a couple people in your life, in addition to love partner, who love you enough that if you are a walking train wreck… they’re not going to look the other way.” –Geoff Laughton
50:18 “If you haven’t yet started recovery, take the risk and deal with the terror of getting help.” –Geoff Laughton
51:33 “One of the most guaranteed ways to help your growth stick is to keep yourself in environments, and around people. –Geoff Laghton
51:54 “Keep practicing…you’ve never got it. There’s no end to your growth. –Geoff Laughton
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
JEFF: So welcome everyone this is Jeff Jones with the podcast Families Navigating Addiction and Recovery. And I am excited to be here today with my guest, Geoff Laughton. And so Jeff is a relationship architect. He’s a relationship coach. I’ve known Geoff for quite a while and he has um, years ago put together a program for couples to navigate their relationship and he has done men’s work for, I dunno, many, many years. I’ll let him tell us about that. But I’m asking him here today specifically because with addiction, addiction doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It happens in relationships and healing doesn’t happen in a vacuum it happens in relationships. And so I’m here today to have a conversation with an expert in relationships and with men’s work specifically to ask questions about what he’s seeing, what he’s learned, tips he has to share about what he’s seen in the front end of addiction. When you know someone’s trying to navigate is this a problem or, or not. And then the various stages and even like after someone has been in long-term recovery for three years or five years or whatever. And so the substance use may be gone, but there’s still patterns that are alive and still working. And those patterns show up in families and they show up in relationships. And that’s some of the stuff I’m going to be talking to Jeff about today. So Geoff Laughton, thank you very much for being here, welcome.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Thank you very much, Jeff. Great to be here and delighted again to converse with you, dialogue with you about the subject kind of near and dear to my heart and my history.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So I’ll say a little bit about me.
JEFF: –Sure, thanks.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: People I have a better sense of who they’re listening to and why they [inaudible] to. So as Jeff mention, I have been a relationship coach and writer. I’ve written two books on the subject of relationships. I mean doing that for 22 years now. And in addition to doing that kind of work with couples and individuals, because how we show up in relationship in my experience is always a reflection somehow, some way of our relationship to ourself. So I help people on both sides of that as couples or individual. And then the man’s work that Jeff alluded to, I’ve been doing that this is my 19th year.
JEFF: Wow.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And yeah, yeah. Time flies when you’re aging and Jeff knows is today’s your birthday. So let it cool bang. You get to be talking to a good friend on sanction important day.
JEFF: –Yeah, thanks.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So the man’s work I’ve been doing has involved a lot of groups. I’ve been leaning men’s groups all that time. I’ve done different workshops over the years with men. And then I also coach men specifically for issues. That day may be dealing with that. They don’t, for whatever reason, feel comfortable with trying to work out in a group situation.
JEFF: –Sure. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So that whole body of work is under the auspices of a nonprofit called the evolving man. So those of you who want to learn more about that side of me, the evolving man.com and we offer groups to men really probably worldwide.
JEFF: So it’s you have groups for men online?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: We do.
JEFF: I know you have them in person, but you have online groups as well?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Yeah, there are a lot of men who live in areas of the U.S we have one guy in one of our virtual groups right now that lives in Thailand and there aren’t always men’s communities available and a lot of different parts of the world and currently even in the U.S –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -so it’s been really wonderful and to be able to give men an opportunity to both work on themselves and build the kind of depth of relationship and friendship with other men that just aren’t likely to happen. If you’re simply or solely a member of a pickup basketball team or you like to watch football with your Bros and we go deep and we’re working with men who are really different ages trying to figure out who they are now, who have they ever been, where do they want to be, how they even gauge whether they’re on track and how do they create the kinds of lives that –
JEFF: –Sure.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -really resonates with their sense of who they are and why they’re here on the planet.
JEFF: And that’s evolvingman.com.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: The evolving man.
JEFF: The evolvingman.com got it.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Don’t leave [inaudible] that.
JEFF: Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So, and then lastly, to make it a bit more personally, even still, I’m also a husband of 37 years and I’ve got two sons who are both grown and have become pretty amazing. Then I’m biased and I’d say that even though they weren’t my kids. And then I also apropos of, you know, the very subject to this podcast, I come from a long, long line of alcoholics.
JEFF: –Hmm Mm.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So this is a world that I know pretty well.
JEFF: Yeah. You’ve lived it. It isn’t something that you just read in a book or something.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Oh Hell No.
JEFF: Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And I deal with it a lot, you know, in, we have men in our groups that are struggling with addiction issues, friends who have or are, and my father, my surviving parent, he’s been sober for 48 or 49 years.
JEFF: Wow. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So a lot of rings I seek to his recovery and the impact that that has made him and that he makes on others in recovery. So I’m pretty passionate about this subject, being able to be able to heal and get help with it whenever way work center.
JEFF: Absolutely. So, so should we start with like the, what you see as far as in relationship or and with men like on the front end when they’re kind of like navigating is this thing that I’m doing or this substance that I’m having, is this problematic? You know, can I really stop this anytime I want or I thought I could and all those kinds of questions. What’s your observation from a relationship standpoint here?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well, from a relationship standpoint, but I’ve seen more often than not is that actually on the front end people can be pretty slow on the uptake to even realize that there is an addiction issue. You know, because –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -my experience with people with addiction, they do their addictive behaviors and they have their emotional and, and mental patterns that contribute to being an addict in the first place. One of which really fundamentally requires a certain level of denial, right? So there will be certain addictive type behaviors that are showing up. And some couples, they may not really be able to discern that these patterns I’m seeing, they don’t just seem like they’re strictly a neurotic personality. There is like compulsivity to things.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: There is a lot of hiding and manipulating that is going on. And unless the people in the relationship have had their own history with even their own addiction or with their maybe addiction in the family, they just may not ever think to see that this might be that type of an issue. And then, well, so we’ll often be a giveaway is a certain level of codependency that’s going on where the, let’s say if it’s a relationship where one member is an addict and the other one isn’t, and that the one who isn’t is constantly making up excuses, –
JEFF: –Right yeah
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -for why their partner is behaving so funky or through the birthday cake if their next door neighbor, yeah, they’re five year olds birthday party.
JEFF: –Right, right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: On a whim.
JEFF: So Geoff, great point. And you know what I’d like to do is to just jump into that a little bit. And so when you see that, are there ways that you have found or what you’ve seen that’s most helpful, you know, for that as you say, that level of denial to be, you know, whether it’s peer store, whether it is the individual on the other side, kind of opening up a little bit to consider, there may be more to this than what I fought. I’m just curious, are there ways that you have worked with that issue that you have found more helpful than others? And I know it’s a general question and there’s a lot of different situations, but.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well in a way I have the perfect set up to discern when and that might be an issue.
JEFF: –Right?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Cause probably 96% of anybody who comes to me, who finds me and hires me to help them their life is already in some degree a breakdown and dysfunction and distress.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So they often you’re coming with a recognition of there is a problem. Now if they are in denial about the degree to which addiction is a part of, or a key element of the problem.
JEFF: –Sure
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And the way that I start, you know, I’m not known for being particularly subtle.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You know that I’m compassionate, but I’m not subtle.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So what I do is I’ll ask very pointed questions.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: That are gonna help reveal at least to me, if not to them, to what degree are we dealing with addiction.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And so I can ask questions as he or she do this, this and this on a regular basis.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: It happens when you ask your partner this, that or that question.
JEFF: Yeah. I’m just, you know, thinking from the standpoint of like and being very direct saying like, have you ever considered that what you’re doing here, part of it can be covering up for your partner’s problem here that you know, may or may not be an addiction. Have you had like, right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Yeah, I’ve done that. And another thing that I’ve done it can be really, really helpful is I will ask them, you know, when I’ve gotten a bit of a feel for them, I’d say I’d ask them. Okay, so these behaviors, how long have you been doing them?
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Of course, the answer is usually long time. Okay. No, say who taught you to behave that way.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And a lot of times they’ll have any immediate answer or they’ll be kind of throwing the [inaudible] by that question and they think about, oh well my mom. Okay, did your mom have a drinking problem or a drug problem? No, no. You know, so then I get to pierce two layers of denial in one fell sloop.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So what do you explain that behavior or how did you explain it to yourself when you were growing up –
JEFF: –Right, right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And how much of a secret give the other parent when you were growing up want you and your siblings to keep that behavior, that problem. And that will usually be the final light bulb if they’re struggling with getting the connection that, oh, this way of behaving was marble for me –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -and I’m used to having my other parent run cover for the one with the problem.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. You know, Geoff, just listening to talk, it reminds me of the dynamic that happens in, in families where, you know, one person is kind of the identified patient or they’re in the spotlight of, they have the problem and their problem is extreme enough that other people’s, you know, compulsivity or what they’re doing looks better. So there’s this like comparative judgment kind of thing and people in the family, and this is totally unconscious, I like, I’m not blaming the family, but people in the family, the coping mechanisms, the strategies and behaviors that they’re using have impact on continuing to see that person as the identified patient. So that can be a little, and you know, being seen as the identified patient is a way to get attention is a way to be seen, is way to have a role in the family. And it’s like that dynamic keeps on flowing or something. So in some ways some of these patterns are pretty simple because they show up in one family to the next. And it isn’t just personal. I mean, there’s a huge amount of personal stuff tied to it, but –
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Right.
JEFF: -there’s these impersonal patterns that like serve some kind of role we don’t always see. And from what I hear in your work with couples, you’re able to kind of ask questions about the past, shine light on that, bring it into the future, and then start kind of talking about it today in relationship with their partner.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Yeah. And you know, this is what you’re bringing up is one of the things I so admire about your approach to working with addiction is it is a family problem. The actual source of the addiction, again, in my experience, it usually was sourced back in childhood and in a family system that we grow up.
JEFF: Our ancestors yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And the ancestors and yet in today, in the now,-
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -the family system. Because every family is a system.
JEFF: Sure.
“…every family is a system. And there are rules of the road for that system.” –Geoff Laughton Share on X
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And there are rules of the road for that system. There’s rules of the road about what we’re gonna tell the truth about what we’re going to cover up. Who gets to be too radical, how you know who’s supposed to, –
JEFF: or when something happens, who speaks first and who speaks and their voice does not get acknowledged.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Right.
JEFF: So then in the couples work that you do, you’re bringing light to that for the couples, some of those relational dynamics that have trickled down from one generation to the next to the next kind of thing.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Yeah. Particularly the roles.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You know, because every player in the family system, as you know, has the role they take on a role or they were unconsciously given one.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: When they were young. And so you know, when I look at what are the giveaway kinds of family patterns, family dynamics, I’ll say, then I’ll try and just confirm it by helping each of the adults in the family be able to look at where is the tide in the past. What –
JEFF: –Yes.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Had a route. [inaudible] get that route really clear.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: They really get how they’re taking in the old thing and just perpetuating it and repeating it again. And if they have teenage children, then all started asking, how is this playing out with any of your kids?
JEFF: Right. Because it is, and it’s not like a blame thing. It’s more like, hey, these are impersonal patterns that come down through the generations. And if we’re not aware of them, you know, then we personalize them and act them out in our relationships, in the family and in our couple relationship.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Absolutely.
JEFF: And Geoff, just what you said, getting clarity about that root and where does this behavior come from? That’s no small deals. So congratulations on kind of like having that be a piece and finding ways to bring clarity to that because that’s a really big deal. And that in itself, when people see that, I’m assuming that they, what’s your experience? They have this question mark over their head like, oh my goodness.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well some, but you know when I’ll see more often than not, no offense to parents because I am one, but let’s just say in the 22 years I’ve been practicing, I’ve had far, far, far fewer people go, oh, I love that. I’m just like my mom or my dad. Most people, if I can make, help them see that connection.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: There’s kind of a, there’s often kind of a, a level of awareness as most people don’t want to be like their parents or they don’t want it to be like that part of their parents for sure.
JEFF: –That part. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Yeah. And so when they seem they’re doing that, and if they have children, and I ask them, how do you think this is impacting your kids?
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And then they go, oh, I’m sure they don’t know. Then I pop that one right off. You know, I say I was a kid who grew up with this crap.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: I can tell you they know some things off. They may not know why they may not be able to explain it.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: They certainly feel that something is really, really funky in the energy in the house.
JEFF: It’s like the, and I’ve heard this and I’m guessing that you probably have to, but it’s like, well, it’s not a problem for my kids. They’ve never seen me drink.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Right yeah. But one of the nights where you came home and you are loaded. And my mom, when she drank, she would tend to be the really jovial –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -beanie, you know, wanting to just merge with you –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -kind of mother, mother, –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -you know, and my dad would just be an ass, but she was sentimental and we’d cry and do it and I just remember being like six, seven, even at seven years old and she would hold me close and I could smell the alcohol.
JEFF: Wow. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And there is one of the biggest, the most ludicrous pieces of denial. My kids never seen me drink. Well they probably know this, the aftermath. And if you’re within breathing distance of you, –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -can probably able to smell that, you smell like paint [inaudible].
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You know, you always smell like this. And so if anybody that has children and took anything away from this conversation, this is probably one of the most important things. If you are an addict and let’s just use alcohol as you know, the frame of reference. Sure. Then if you think your kids don’t know, they may not know the word –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -but if you think because they don’t see you drink that they don’t know –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -that you have an issue.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You’re crazy.
JEFF: Yeah. So I mean just in listening to you talk about this, I was struck with this point about relationship and connection and you know what I’ve seen and one way that I have thought about it and talk about it is that in this slow, gradual, incremental process of addiction, the person who is in the epicenter of that, they are incrementally connecting more and more to that substance. Say for instance, alcohol and their connections with humans change –
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Yeah.
JEFF: -and specifically with humans that were the most important to them and they had deep connections with them. Then when more and more they connect with the substance or the alcohol, like less and less they connect with, you know, people who were really important to them and they have less connection internally, you know, with real parts of themselves.
“In this slow, gradual, incremental process of addiction, the person who is in the epicenter of that, they are incrementally connecting more and more to that substance… then when more and more they connect with the substance, less and less they… Share on X
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Right.
JEFF: You know, maybe more from a spiritual meditation kind of standpoint. And so that connection piece, it’s, I’ve always been curious about it and like the more they connect to this substance, then the relationships. It’s like what purpose do they serve? Cause there’s almost like an extreme point. The relationships serves a different purpose.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well, my experiences, the relationship same between a kid and an addicted parent.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: I mean, number one, and I just want to reiterate, I’m speaking from my experience.
JEFF: –Sure.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: The drinking does not create connection –
JEFF: –With people, –
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –right.
JEFF: -it creates connection with more drinking.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: It does. And maybe people you drink with, –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -that’s not real connection because that’s connection where you’re mutually supporting each other’s disease.
“The drinking does not create connection with people. It creates connection with more drinking and maybe people you drink with. That's not real connection, because that’s connection where you're mutually supporting each other's disease.” –Geoff… Share on X
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So in a family, if a parent has a serious addiction issue, connection is being impaired all the time, add to that. The way that I’ve seen alcoholism play out over and over again is that the alcoholic, the addicted parents, if there’s only one, and it’s even worse if there’s two, they suck all the energy out of the room, out of the family.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: It’s all about managing them, –
JEFF: –Right. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -and every kid who plays their role in trying to figure out how to manage that, have the attention going off of them as children towards having the manage mom or dad or both behavior and the fallout –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -there. Then that also is a perfect set up for that kid to grow up to be a codependent him or herself.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Those, the conditioning is that love and value come from tending to or managing this problem.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So of course they’ll attract partners in the future that are likely to be, you know, a problem, –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Isn’t, that’s what they’re most used to and familiar with and they can do that blindfold.
JEFF: Yeah, and especially when it’s a parent because it’s like our parents. So often times for kids, like the parents are the God and goddess and it’s really hard for children at a young age, you know, to be able to assess and go, this isn’t right. I deserve something better than this. I have heard people say that as a child, they knew that something wasn’t right and they trusted that, but that’s not the norm. The norm is a like, that’s my God and goddess and that’s where I get my love and I need to do x, y, Z, like manage this person. Like what you were saying. I would say like Orient around the addiction but exact same thought, but they learn this is what I need to do to get love. And then this trickles down to, you know, now they’re adult and now they’re in a couple relationship and things are going wrong and they come into your office or they meet with you online or whatever and –
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Yeah. And then wondering why, wondering why there relationship if they’ve gotten that far. But if they haven’t, I help them see it. Why am I doing the very thing that I hated watching my mom or dad or both of my parents do?
JEFF: –Hmm Mm.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: It was so painful for me.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And now I’m doing it, well.
JEFF: How do people answer that for themselves?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: A lot of them are genuinely, they don’t know.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And that’s usually gonna be where I have to make the connection for them.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Ask the questions to confirm that there might be, you know like all right, you’re doing what you grew up getting taught to do because this is the other thing they can get easy for adults to forget. Cause you know, we grow up and we think, okay, I’m my own man or woman and I’m not a kid anymore, blah blah blah. But our childhood informs 95% of all our unconscious activity.
JEFF: –Right, yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So we were trained to be the way that we’re probably showing up, not like many parents go, all right, John and Sally, sit down and let me tell you how to be sure you grow up to have a really f that relationship.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: They just train you by their behavior. They you by how they respond with love –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -for all of love, all that stuff. And so may have to see that there is a degree, you know, in the balancing act is seeing that you’re repeating a family systems pattern because do, do rolls downhill. And then the other edge of the balance is, okay, so I have this, I’m doing when that was model for me to do and I’ve got to find my way of being me and now it can be challenging because if you grew up in an addictive, you know, a family with addiction, as you were just saying, a few minutes on this was definitely true for me. I spent so much my childhood where my role was to try and keep too many of the plates from crashing down. There were beings fun as a result of the alcoholism.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: That I was probably in my early and mid-thirties before I really began to realize I had no idea what my needs were.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: All my stuff was referenced to external people, external crises, external validation. And I didn’t get that because that was just business as usual because my needs didn’t matter in my alcoholic family.
JEFF: Right. That’s, which is pretty common.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Yep.
JEFF: You know, so that like is very key. That process that you talked about, you know, understanding and helping people clarify the roots of like the behavior that’s happening now, where that comes from, and then how that plays out today specifically in their relationship. So switching gears from the relationship coaching and your role there too, your role leading numerous men’s groups and have for 20 some years, how do you see that playing out in that context with all men and their partners, not there?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well, a lot of times it has shown up, particularly in the last few years for some reason, there’s more awareness now than there was when I first started out. But the men who do have an addiction issue, they at least [inaudible] the mandatory awareness of how it’s impacting their life, –
JEFF: –Hmm Mm.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -how it feels to them physically, how it’s impacting if they’re in their own relationship, how it’s happening there, how it might be, you know, damaging their relationship with their children. Whether they’re young kids, adolescents, or adult kids. They see, they’ve already figured out by the time they get into a group that something’s not quite right in river city. They want to figure out how to turn in the round.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Some because they’re seeing the damage it’s already causing in their children –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -and they’re motivated by being horrified at watching their behavior, repeating in their own kids. And whenever I listen to a man going, my kid is acting out and I don’t understand, you know, he or she does this, this and this, and I’ll say, well, what do you do when you’re loaded? Oh No, I, yeah, yeah, I do that, that and that, –
JEFF: –Hmm Mm.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -you know, and my attacked away, I’ll say, so the apple isn’t falling far from the tree right.
JEFF: –In your tactful way.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: In my tactful loving way, yes.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Once that light bulb goes on with a lot of guys, or if they don’t have children, the other thing that will come up will be relationship dysfunction. You know, we have a lot of guys the age range in our groups go from, you know, at say 25, 26 to 75.
JEFF: –Yeah, beautiful.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And there’s a couple groups that we have where a lot of the men are in the kind of 26 to 36 range –
JEFF: –Uh huh.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -and they’re, part of what motivated them to want to get into a group is because they’re old enough to have had multiple relationships not work.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And they want to get, you know, like why can’t I find a good relationship? Why can’t I keep one in the inquiry that comes from that. It’ll usually get revealed that there is a substance issue if there is one.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And then we deal with that head on thing, man. Get the cost trying to help him get what they’re getting out of it because none of us addicted or not, we don’t change anything until it hurts more than it benefits.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Then we’ll do something about it.
“None of us, are addicted or not, we don't change anything until it hurts more than it benefits. Then we'll do something about it.” –Geoff Laughton Share on X
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So we try and help men see that. And then of course we also tie that to any given man’s relationship with his masculinity and his maleness cause a lot of horrible in behavior can inappropriately get kind of rationalized or if not just flat out justified.
JEFF: –Sure.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well, my dad did this or well this is how memoir –
JEFF: –Uh huh, right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -and then you know we get to find out, well then what if that isn’t the kind of man you are but you’re just behaving like this kind of man.
JEFF: Sure yeah. One of the things that I’m curious about and I would like to hear what your hit on this is, but that is like the difference between men dealing with an addiction issue in a couple relationship and men dealing with an addiction issue with other men. I mean there’s some things that I think about that are very different, you know, specifically you know, men can kind of like hold other men to be accountable or at least to ask for that where –
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Yeah.
JEFF: -it’s easier for them to do that. Then you know, having their wife or partner be in that role is sometimes problematic at best.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Oh, I see a huge difference and to me I think that being is difference and why it can be so helpful. It’s not hugely irritating to the addict, but it can be so helpful to have a rock solid group of men to be a part of. Because your partner, if you’re partnered and you drink to excess, if you’re an alcoholic and you are in the relationship, your partner, unless they are working with you on recovering, has their own vested interest on a subconscious psychological level to not rock the boat too much.
JEFF: –Right. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: But you get in a group of men who are all committed to being, you know, truly supportive and understand that one of the best aspects of healthy masculine energy is you do what needs to be done and you know people,
“One of the best aspects of healthy masculine energy is you do what needs to be done.” –Geoff Laughton Share on X
JEFF: –Right. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And so because the other man in a circle are not invested in maintaining the role that their wife or partner –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -is invested in. There’s much more room to go, dude. You’re completely full of it.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And somehow this magical thing that can happen in men’s groups. That as we both know men can just get in each other’s face and still have it being compassionate.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And have it be loving. But it isn’t soft. It isn’t when I know why they’re hurting your of, no, it’s like wake the hell up. And how is this affecting your life and what are you going to do about it?
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And that’s something that a lot of spouses are reluctant to do because again, they may not know how they are complicit. They’re not making their partner drink. That’s totally up to their partner.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: But they are influencing and impacting the dynamic as a whole. They, you know, influence –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -more [inaudible] or move towards sobriety.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. So I really appreciate the explanation there and your focus on, you know, the, going back to parents and grandparents and I think of like years ago because I’ve known you for a while, you were like inner child work was one of the things that you were doing. So I can really see how you integrated that into your program.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Absolutely.
JEFF: And you know, I mean the other thing that I’ve seen with addiction is, you know, people can get into addiction because they’re self-medicating pain and it could be, you know, any number of things that start with a physical pain. Like so many things we read about Oxycontin and all that. But you know, alcohol kind of numbs the pain. One of the things they say is, yeah, I’d like, I’m feeling no pain here. But that’s another piece that, and I’m thinking that too by kind of present differently in a group. I don’t know, but, so I really, you know, appreciate what you were talking about with the men’s group and the directness and the, you know, hey dude, I really care about you. I love you. And you know what you’re saying here is like, you’re kidding yourself. I need you to know that’s what I see here. You know, it’s like men who really want to support other men in the group being the best man that can.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Yeah. And you know, if you grew up in an alcoholic family or really, even if there’s not an addiction issue in the family, –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: I can count on, no hands the number of families I’ve ever heard about over the last 25 years that didn’t have this function. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a functional family. And if you really think about it, how could there be when you get that we are in the byproduct of generations of –
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Manure psychological pattern manure running down-hill generation to generation to generation. So there is no way that I can think of than any family system is innately from the get go.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: [inaudible] healthy.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So the point I was gonna make is that another thing that I know makes such a difference when a man is willing to let himself be loved and supported by other men.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Is that from many guys that could be the first time they’ve really had an experience of that. You guys, you could be in a relationship or you know, my wife, she has loved me from the get go and yeah, in some of my worst moments she could love me while I was despising myself and I couldn’t let that in. And there is a feminine way that part of me can work. But if you’re in a group of good, pretty awake, truly caring guys,
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You know, any attempt you make. This been my experience anyway when I first started being in men’s groups. Any trick that any dude has to try and hide the s the group, make it look like, yeah, I’m learning it in your, your I, I know you love me cause I always see me at least one guy in that circle on it and then call bs on it and do it in a way where you’re not gonna have a very easy, if in all, even possible a time of denying.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You’re not letting yourself be loved. You’re not learning yourself be supportive.
JEFF: –Sure. Yeah thank you.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: There’ll be persistent.
JEFF: Yeah. So Geoff, I feel like, you know, we could go on and on talking and there’s one question that I still had that I wanted to kind of throw out there and it’s a shift from the men’s group thing. Back to the couple thing, and I’m curious like in the work that you do with couples, have you seen the situation of, you know, the substance, the alcohol, whatever has stopped, but there’s still relational dynamics between the partners that stem from the family addiction dynamics kind of thing?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Oh, absolutely.
JEFF: And how do you work with that?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well, first I try and get my arms around my own sense of, okay, what’s the root systemic issue.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: That still hasn’t been healed right. Because you should fight a lot of addicts and stop drinking and then they can get heavy because they just replace the sugar in the alcohol was sugar. I mean, my dad did that.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: He just became a sugar addict when he stopped drinking. Well, I think sugar addiction is part of alcoholism, but you know, they replace it with something else. So I look to see how is it they’ve stopped drinking or using, but I actually look for where are some of the patterns or behaviors still occurring. And that tells me that whenever is still happening, even though they are truly sober.
JEFF: –Right. Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: They haven’t dealt with the root issue, which is usually a childhood issue, which is why inner child work, which I’m now finding myself doing it again after a five year break, more and more people are asking for it again.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: It’s a new phase of awareness, but when they really get that this started back there,
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -we’re earning how they heal that within themselves and in that young part of themselves –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -that has a very, very real ability and likelihood to break that once and for all.
JEFF: –Sure.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: As long as they keep doing the healthier behaviors, as long as they have people who hold them accountable, as long as they have people who will give them, you know, fear, tough love when it’s warranted and not tough love when that’s warranted, then they have a fighting chance.
JEFF: Yeah. Thank you for that. And I’m aware of our time here and so I’m wondering, Geoff, are there things that like tips that you wanted to share or things that you wanted to say that I haven’t asked about or you haven’t brought forward yet?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You know, really the main thing. I don’t think so. I think one, I would just reiterate that maybe I haven’t said so bluntly. It’s really, really simple to know if you have a problem and that is, is that your life won’t be working well. You’re having trouble with money, you’re having trouble with your relationship, your parent, your kids hate your guts.
“It's really, really simple to know if you have a problem. And that is, is that your life won't be working well.” –Geoff Laughton Share on X
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Go through 10 jobs in two years if you’ve got enough awareness to see that your life is not working.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You know, or in the other sign that helped me wake up to where mine wasn’t working. You’re addicted to food or you’re addicted to work or you’re addicted to sex, you know, so something that has you that you feel you have no control over.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Any of those signs are there and you’re seeing him, someone who you know loves you, that you trust,
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Hey, –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -you’re really working for you. It doesn’t look like it.
JEFF: Yeah. Thank you very much for saying that. And expanding it from the substance use kind of thing to overworking or sugar or sex or you know, any of the number of things that, and you know, I’ve seen this and I know you have because you just mentioned it, but you know, people are quote unquote like I’ve been in recovery for x number of years or whatever, but then they’ve changed to this other like sugar. And your very simple thing of like is my life not, you know, working or not. And if it’s sugar, it isn’t like I’m eating sugar all the time. It isn’t like I’m going to get a DUI or brown in jail or whatever. So there’s a lot of subtleties with this and I’m glad there’s people like yourself who have a understanding and a background of how these differ, obsessive, compulsive, addictive kind of behaviors can play out. And it’s not just about stopping a substance, it’s more about looking at one’s life and committing to play in a bigger game kind of thing, –
“It's not just about stopping a substance, it's more about looking at one's life and committing to play in a bigger game.” –Jeff Jones Share on X
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Right.
JEFF: -or whatever it is for people. You know, what am I really passionate about? What do I really want to do with my life and how do I want to contribute to others or the world?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well, and you made me think of one other thing I’ll say is that I know for me, because human beings can rationalize just about any crazy crappie line. And I remember when, for me the addiction was food and work.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And I rationalized work because men are supposed to work hard. So I am being a good man.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And the food, I’m almost embarrassed to even remember this, but I remember that there were times, and I would say to myself, when I was overeating and gaining weight at the peak of my weight battle, I was 285 pounds.
JEFF: –Wow. Wow.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: I live in [inaudible], the frigging hut from Star Wars. So I literally rationalize that.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: My saying in this time I’m drinking.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And there are worse things than I could be doing. Totally denying the health problems that come with that.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So the thing I want to encourage people to have as a general rule, just a tip for healthy living as a human being is have at least a couple people in your life, in addition to a love partner who love you enough that if you are a walking train wreck, –
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -your life is a train wreck.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You want to have people who love you enough to be able to say, I love you dearly. And have you noticed that your life’s a frigging train wreck.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: They’re not gonna look the other way and at least not make the effort. They can’t make you as the proverbial horse drink from the pond, but they can at least say your ass need some pond.
“The thing I want to encourage people to have, as a general rule, just a tip for healthy living as a human being, is have at least a couple people in your life, in addition to love partner, who love you enough that if you are a walking train… Share on X
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah. Got It. Great. Great message. So yeah, before I ask you about how people could get a hold of you, I mean that’s a great tip right there and I want to underline it, but I like any other tips for relationship or for men, you know, relative to some stage of addiction or recovery.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Well, if you haven’t yet started recovery, take the risks and deal with the terror of getting help. And if you’re in recovery, and this is really true about any kind of transformational work, whether you’re dealing with addiction or your just your average everyday suburban neurotic and you do personal growth work to feel better about yourself. All kinds of transformative experiences that are out there.
“If you haven't yet started recovery, take the risk and deal with the terror of getting help.” –Geoff Laughton Share on X
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: And people will do them and feel like they’ve had praise Jesus moment of growth and then within a month they don’t remember hardly anything about the workshop and they’re back to doing the same old crap different day.
JEFF: –Yeah.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: The main reason that transformation or recovery, I think doesn’t stick when it doesn’t.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: Is because you let your mind be as you and the believing that now that you’re feeling better.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: I’ve been sober for nine months when the perfect time to celebrate by having a drink.
JEFF: Yeah, I got this.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: One of being most guaranteed ways to help your growth stick is to keep yourself in environments and around people. And sometimes that can be working with a coach, someone like me, you know that you have to keep practicing, –
“One of the most guaranteed ways to help your growth stick is to keep yourself in environments, and around people. –Geoff Laghton Share on X
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: -to remember you’ve never got it.
JEFF: –Right.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: There’s no end to your growth.
“Keep practicing…you've never got it. There's no end to your growth. –Geoff Laughton Share on X
JEFF: And I mean Geoff, that ties so beautifully in to your other point about having two or three people in your life other than your love partner who can hold you accountable and can be honest and say, hey dude, I really love you and I’m seeing Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Dah, kind of thing.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: –Yeah.
JEFF: So, yeah I can see where those two go together. This has been a great conversation.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: I agree. It’s been very fun. Thank you for inviting me to be here.
JEFF: Yeah, you are welcome. And how do you want people to get ahold of you or learn more about the work that you do?
GEOFF LAUGHTON: So the easiest way to get a home with me is to email me at Geoff, G-E-O-F-F @yourrelationshiparchitect.com.
JEFF: –Okay.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: You want to explore relationship questions. If you’re a guy listening to this and this is resonating with you and all and you want to learn more, the website is theevolvingman.com and the email for that work is Geoff imagine that G-E-O-F-F @theevolvingman.com.
JEFF: Perfect. Perfect. Great well thank you very much, Geoff.
GEOFF LAUGHTON: My pleasure. Thank you.