38: The Truth About Rehab for Families with Denise Klein
“We need to have a space for families to go where they can connect because … the disease lives where there’s disconnection.” –Denise Klein
There’s a great book coming to town! It’s called, The Truth About Rehab by Denise Klein, the Co-Owner and CEO of Milestones Ranch Malibu. Denise has been a social worker for nearly 30 years. And what can she say: ““I love what I do.” Allow her to tell you more about her book and how it can help everyone, family members and professionals alike. The truth is, a rehab should be more than just a ‘rehab’. As quoted above, it is “a space for families to go where they can connect.” This new book, written in collaboration with a couple of professionals, features important aspects in rehab; some of which are discussed in this episode.
Countless advertisements entice people with promising guarantees. Doctors, although being in the same field, have differing opinions and interpretations. That’s why families get confused in terms of choosing the right interventionist and the proper intervention for their loved one. And once they choose one, each member has to know what really is the family’s role in the family transformation. Are they observers? supporters? or are they much more than that? The thing is, healing takes on as a family and not individually. We don’t just leave our family members at the treatment center’s door, come back in a couple of months and become normal again. So how do we harness the family’s strength and resiliency and create this “space” for connections and genuine healing? Finally, we know that after the treatment process, stressors and the possibility of relapse will surround families every second of everyday. So how do we help ourselves and our family member look at personal boundaries and deal with grey areas? Well, we surely do not want to go down a rabbit hole on this one so listen in as we delve harder into these topics. The treatment may have ended but the healing continues. It’s a way of life at least from this point on.
Highlights:
03:47 Thirty years and Still In Love
07:00 The Truth About Rehab
11:08 The Family in Transformation
20:57 Laughing Again
26:52 Dealing with Gray Areas
This week’s episode was sponsored by
http://www.milestonesranch.com
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866.874.9774
There’s a new book coming up and it’s for everyone! Meet the author @deeamige and see what’s in it for YOU as she discusses #thetruthaboutrehab with our host, @TFRSolution. Share on X
Connect With Denise
Website: http://www.milestonesranch.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/denise-e-klein-987790b/
Facebook: https://web.facebook.com/denise.klein.9887?_rdc=1&_rdr
Twitter: https://twitter.com/deeamige
Telephone: 818-879-9110
Quotes:
03:53 “I love what I do.” –Denise Klein
05:02 “My particular vision was one where you got to work with the families intensely for as long as possible because … the longer they’re in treatment, the better the outcomes are.” –Denise Klein
10:56 “Transformation is happening every day, all over the place.” –Jeff Jones
12:00 “And so the family have to basically be provided education that is state of the art and cutting edge so that they know what they’re dealing with.” –Denise Klein
13:13 “The truth about rehab is that we are not that well defined yet. We are not using enough nurses and social workers and trained professional.” –Denise Klein
15:46 “I think what it boils down to is what I’m seeing over the past 3 years, is that addiction is getting more epidemic… what it boils down to in its simplicity is that America has a problem solving problem.” –Denise Klein
16:51 “America has a Dopamine problem too. We want the quick fix and that quick fix is hurting us.” –Nora Volkow, quoted by Denise Klein
19:58 “And I believe in family, and I believe in the resiliency of family. And that’s another reason why that’s the bliss. I want to help families learn to be happy.” –Denise Klein
20:58 “I think what I’ve seen over the past 30 years is their ability to start laughing at themselves again.…”–Denise Klein
24:30 “The person needs to understand why they’re doing what they’re doing, what the pros are, what the cons are, and make that decision.” –Denise Klein
35:08 “That piece that’s very crucial to look at is when is they stepped down, the disease can step in.” –Denise Klein
39:00 “But my sense is that there’s a lot of good things going on in the addiction recovery space. There’s also some out of integrity things going on. The more that we can work together, to shine light on shadowed areas… I think the more the statistics we can actually change.” –Jeff Jones
40:37 “We need to have a space for families to go where they can connect, because just like with the identified patient, the disease lives where there’s disconnection. Families need to connect, we need to decrease the stigma.” –Denise Klein
Got ideas? Perhaps a future podcast? Schedule time with Jeff here: https://meetme.so/jeffjones
Transcriptions
MILESTONE AD:
I’m honored to have Milestones Ranch Malibu sponsor this episode of this podcast. Milestones Ranch is a small 12 bed premier dual diagnosis residential facility that believes that addiction problems in a family do not happen in a vacuum. Everyone has taken on impact and everyone deserves healing from the ramifications of addiction. I’ve experienced milestones myself. I’ve been there, feet on the ground firsthand. And over time of working with this team, I’ve seen the benefit of a group of dedicated professionals supporting families long term positive outcomes, what they call the milestones method. I have the utmost respect for their team and their collaborative model of health. So, check out their website at www.milestonesranch.com.
JEFF: So welcome everyone, this is Jeff Jones. And today, I am here with Denise Klein, the CEO of Milestones Ranch Malibu. I am so excited to have this conversation. Malibu has sponsored this podcast for three months and to have a conversation with Denise Klein, I’m so excited. She’s a wonderful person. I have known her for a number of years. I’ve been out to Malibu myself and seen the ground, seen the ranch and had number of interactions with professionally here. So, Denise has been a social worker for nearly 30 years and in her CEO position at Milestones, she’s very much involved with the day to day kind of thing. I’ll let her talk about any specifics that she wants to, but I have so much respect for Milestones and Denise, so welcome Denise.
DENISE: Jeff thank you so, so much. It’s so great to be doing this. We’ve been talking about this for a while and you’re so busy with everything you’re doing with your Family Recovery Solutions. I just applaud you for everything you’re doing for industry, for having the courage to put this website together or working so hard on creating solutions for families who are suffering, who are truly suffering out there. You’re doing fantastic work and I love the people you’re interviewing. I’ve appreciated all of the content you’ve provided. So thank you.
JEFF: Yeah. Well thank you very much. I appreciate that. And so as a way to start, can you talk, like I gave this little intro of you. Can you let people know from your perspective anything you want them to know about you?
DENISE: Well, I think what I would love for people to know is that definitely I love what I do. It’s an advocation. I love helping families. I’ve been in the field for almost 30 years. I started out doing intensive in home wraparound care for families whose children were placed out of the home. And so, we would work with the families sometimes up to two years and we’d have very small caseload and we would help either prevent out of home placement or we would help reunify children with their families. And it was the most rewarding work that I ever did. And so, I just feel so blessed to be part of this profession. And when my daughter graduated from high school, she decided to become a social worker too. And so now we get to work side by side. So Savannah and I are both living in California now.
And it was just kind of a fluke that I ended up in a recovery center that allowed me to create a vision and stay small by design and really focus on the family. A lot of programs, and there is a need for all kinds of programs, so I’m open, but my particular vision was one where you got to work with the families intensely for as long as possible. Because we really know that the science of supports that the longer the person is in treatment, it doesn’t mean that they have to remain in primary care, but as long as they’re in treatment, the longer they’re in treatment, the better the outcomes are. So, I landed in a ranch.
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: On a ranch, I should say, in this eutopic environment where I get to work with 45 professionals who really want to make a difference. And it’s been beautiful.
JEFF: Wow. So 45 professionals on the staff at the ranch that you’re talking about.
DENISE: Yes, at Milestones. Now they’re not all full time employees. What we find is when people are enrolling in treatment, you know they’re coming there to deal with their drug and alcohol issue, but we all know that had just been a temporary solution for them and it has seats to work. And so, what we do at milestone is we really, really look into the underlying issues. It’s almost like we do an MRI or a CAT scan to see what emotional issues or physical issues or self esteem issues are driving and propelling this person to self medicate to the point where they are at high risk of losing their life.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. Well, I mean that’s how I know Milestones really is any complex case where understanding the underlying issues, it’s like Milestones is always on that list in, for myself, but then just being a member of the network of Independent Interventionists, I’ve seen numerous other people kind of reflect the same thing. So, and there’s what? Eight beds at Milestone. Eight or 10, or what does?
DENISE: Actually we have 12 but we prefer to run at about eight to 10, so we can stay very, very focused on the level of care that we’re providing.
JEFF: Sure. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. And so, one of the things that we had talked about before, but I’d really like to learn more about, and that is you’re writing a book and the name of the book I think is The Truth with Rehabs. And did I get that right? Please correct me here.
DENISE: Oh, actually it’s called The Truth About Rehab. And I have asked Dr Seth Kadish, who was our former clinical director who still does groups for us and working for PCH, which is a renown program in Los Angeles. And Kirk Harvey, who has his master’s degree in counseling and does a lot of clinical outreach all over the country and I think internationally to help me with this project.
JEFF: Great. And so, The Truth About Rehab, so can you talk a little bit about what inspired that book or some of like the basic theme or where you’re at with it?
DENISE: Well, I went to a conference years ago and there was this gentleman who was talking about what motivates and inspires one. And it’s either piss or bliss. And I would say there’s a little bit of both that’s inspired me to take on this project. And the reason the piss is that there’s so much information out there and my heart is just so basically large for people who are trying to find solutions and there’s so much information. Treatment centers all have a different way of treating patients. The doctors don’t necessarily always agree on interventions or modalities. And the families are left to their own devices to figure out what’s going to save their loved ones live. So it was basically a combination of piss and bliss. And the bliss is if we can break this down into really intelligent dialogue that is very clear and succinct, I think we’re going to be able to help families recognize that there isn’t a cure. We wish there was, but there isn’t a cure yet and it’s one day at a time. It’s a lot of work. And with that, I’m still very hopeful because I see transformation happening every day, not just in our center but in other centers.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: But families, because I think there were, I don’t know, you know, a lot of advertisements that said there’s a cure and there’s guarantees. I think that America has been branded with a broad swipe that there’s some kind of magic bullet out there. You go into rehab for 30 to 60 days and you come out a new person.
JEFF: And you’re cured..
DENISE: I don’t know about you. Yeah, and I don’t know about you Jeff, but what habits have you tried changing that you were able to self correct within that amount of time?
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: It’s so complicated.
JEFF: Right. It is. Yeah, it’s very, very complicated. So, I mean it’s like I really appreciate the way you framed the piss or bliss kind of thing as far as the inspiration and, you know, because there’s always these two sides, you know, everything really and that you like, acknowledged transformation is happening every day all over the place. And so, one of the, well I have a couple questions that I could take off from there, but one of the questions that I am curious about is from your perspective with the transformation, what role do you see families playing in that?
DENISE: Well, in regard to the transformation, I’m a trained family clinician who is trained in systemic thinking. And I think they play every department, the micro, the mezzo, the macro, every piece of it. Addiction, when addiction enters a family system, and let me bookmark that with it’s not just one identified patient anymore, sometimes there’s three and four people using in the family.
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: And that’s the complexity of what the rehabs are challenged with is trying to help a system where, you know, there’s so many people impacted by the illness of addiction.
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: And so the families have to basically, you know, be provided education that is state of the art and cutting edge, so that they know what they’re dealing with, and they know how serious this illness is. And then they have to be willing to look at themselves –
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: – and figure out what they’re willing to do and what they’re willing to commit to. Are they willing to go to individual therapy? Are they willing to go and unplug and go away for a week or two to work on their pattern? So –
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: – everyone in the system has to take a look at themselves. It’s what I was trained 30 years ago. It’s like the mobile, you put it in front of the window and you can’t isolate one piece of the mobile. When wind blows trees through and everything’s shake rattling and rolling. And that’s how family systems come in, just like any other illness. If someone were diagnosed with, God forbid heart disease or cancer, the family system will rally around that identified patient, right?
JEFF: Sure.
DENISE: And the doctors come out and talk to them and the nurses and the social workers stabilize them. And in ours, the problem is, in rehab, the truth about rehab is that we are not that well defined yet. We are not using enough nurses and social workers and trained professional. And we are all, you know, recognizing that in order to be truly impactful everyone has to move to a very serious dual diagnosis model of care where there’s social workers who can help with case management and discharge planning. And one example is the case that we had with you, I remember that was probably five, six years ago, one case that we worked on. You’re on the phone every day as a clinician talking with another primary care clinician –
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: – and you were having those important discussions so that you could adjust the sail weekly so that you’d end up in the right port. Correct?
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. That’s a great metaphor to it, just the sail because the wind is always changing and it’s coming from different directions and, I mean it’s not only the wind, you know, there’s other factors that are involved. But it’s like, yeah, I really appreciate what you’re saying. I mean quite a bit that it’s a whole systems dynamic or problem when addiction enters a certain family. And the other thing that I think about is it’s a comment that you made earlier in this discussion and you were asking me like how difficult it is for me to change a behavior that I really want to change and what do I do to do that? And I know that’s really, really hard. And you know, with addiction and specifically families and families roles that isn’t really all that clear, that isn’t laid out all that easy to make sense of for families. And so, I appreciate the, you know, the energy going into writing a book to help make that clear.
DENISE: Well thank you. Thank you. It’s a labor of love and I’m so excited to work with Seth and Kirk on this and you know, we’re hoping to get it out within, you know, at least nine to 12 months. And in the meanwhile, we’ll be talking a lot about it and providing information to our families and to the professionals and that we get to see it all these various events. But you know, I think what it boils down to is, what I’m seeing over the past 30 years is that addiction is getting more epidemic. I mean, there’s just more and more people that are being impacted. And what it boils down to in its simplicity is that America has a problem solving problem.
Meaning that every problem we have, whether it’s, you know, sleep hygiene or, and, you know, people go to Ambien a sleep sedative. You know, if there’s a problem at work and you’re stressed out, you want more energy, so you go to Adderall or Cocaine. It’s like we need to slow down and look at our problems and slow and steady wins the race. We need to be able to mindfully consider perhaps yoga or meditation or going to the gym, enrolling in the gym. And all of these things that you can do that are pro health behaviors that increase serotonin. And I think it was Dr Nora Volkow who said America has a dopamine problem too. We want the quick set.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: And that quick fix is hurting us so much. And I’m just worried with, you know, the addiction to technology and the fast pace with which we live, that addiction is going to become more rampant. And that’s why we need to write the book. That’s why we need to have intelligent conversations. And that’s why we all need to show up with our best solution.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. Well, I mean, just in listening to what you’re saying, and I mean, you know, part of the complexity is like the world we live in, the environment that we’re engaged in and what our lives look like, how stressful they are, and then what do we have inside of us as far as, you know, strengths to help us be resilient, to deal with the stressors and our environment that we’ve live in. And, you know, some people they have so many strengths and so much resiliency and some people don’t and it’s not like it’s their fault, you know? And the more things go along, the more of those factors are important and come into play. So, I appreciate your, like ever since I’ve known you, your persistence to kind of not just brush what’s complicated under the rug, you know, but to really each individual situation to, you know, spend the time to look at it and inspire a family and have a staff that helps you do that same thing. I mean, it’s like how cool is that? So.
DENISE: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: Well, I feel very, very, very blessed. I come from a large family of five brothers and sisters, over 30 nieces and nephews. My parents were married 65 years and I just love families and I love that I get to be a social worker. I always joke and say I went into social work because I get, I thought it was a good career because you got paid to be social, but isn’t that really truly what it’s about is communication and helping families communicate? Isn’t that the most powerful thing we can do?
JEFF: It is.
DENISE: The one thing that makes me happiest, and I’m sure in your work too, this is why we do what we do, is just, you know, when clients come into rehab and oh, I don’t, well, I don’t want to do the family therapy. You know, we’re all kind of like that. We’re all kind of little kids at [inaudible]. It’s like, I don’t want to do it. And then they do it and then they’re like, oh my God. They’re just like a big smile on their face. I don’t care what age we treat, 18 to 80, they are so happy when they come out of those family sessions. And you know, we’re very solution focused and strength based and I believe in the family. And I believe in the resiliency of family. And that’s another reason why I, that’s the bliss, I want to help families learn to be happy.
JEFF: And so Denise, like when you see that some families really get that and kind of, they feel, it’s like families really get that you’re not looking at them through a lens of shame and blame, but looking at them through a lens of how can we work together to solve this problem? How can we “the family” communicate better when they really get that? What do you notice? What do you see? And so it’s kind of a broad question. I’m just curious like what you’ve noticed when families really see a larger picture.
DENISE: Hmm, that’s a great question. I think what I’ve seen over the past 30 years is their ability to start laughing at themselves again. You know, their central nervous system are impacted by all of the stress and trauma and fear of losing your loved ones. Something that’s so precious to you that you want to fix it so bad and you can’t because you can’t control another human being. So, when they finally are able to put the oxygen mask on themselves first and they feel better and they’re engaging in proper sleep hygiene and nutritional hygiene and taking care of themselves, that their humor comes back, resiliency comes back and they know that this is something that they want to continue to work on. It’s not just 30 days, it’s not just 90 days. It’s something that they’ll have to do the rest of their lives, because addiction, we only know how to help put it in remission.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: So it’s like any illness is remission base, which is okay, so for example, if you have any other conditions, you don’t manage your stress levels if you don’t eat right, if you don’t take care of yourself, if you don’t manage your workload, the condition’s going to come back. It’s no different from addiction.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: You go to your default mode and then your quick coping mechanism. Well, do you want to go to a meeting, or do you want to, you know, go get some Adderall, which is going to give you that quick fix. And so, it’s really long term work and requires fellowship support, clinical care and mindfulness.
JEFF: Yeah. And so here I want to just kind of throw out a question a little bit, kind of like a devil’s advocate question, but something that –
DENISE: Sure.
JEFF: – I have, I am assuming that other people are wondering about and, specifically family members and that is like, can you talk a little bit about that line between addiction, which is remission based, which like it’s a lifestyle change that they will need to change for the rest of their lives kind of thing. And, you know, maybe like someone who is thinking: “Well, I know that I’ve kind of been in excess here, maybe I can just kind of take a break for a month and then I can kind of continue not what I was doing before but not totally give it up.” Do you know what I mean?
DENISE: Oh, absolutely. And you know, there’s a specific therapy and I would encourage everyone who is looking for a therapist to make sure that their therapists as well trained in motivational interviewing. I’ve had the privilege of working with just the most skilled therapist on the planet. I’m bias. I love our therapist. And the therapist who are trained in motivational enhancement therapy, they are able to meet the client where they’re at and with the deepest empathy and kindness. And just look at how, that’s kinda like when Dr Phil would say, who probably wasn’t trained in MI probably, but how’s that working for you, you know? And looking at the pros and cons and you can’t, it doesn’t help to shame or judge or criticize or even basically psychoeducation too much on what they need to do. The person needs to understand why they’re doing what they’re doing, what the pros are, what the cons are and make that decision. And with a therapist trained in motivational enhancement therapy, I have seen 80% of their patients get well. It just blows me away. They are so good at helping motivate the person. Again. you know, shifting the sail so you end up in the right port.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: It’s evidence based and it works. And we just did a big training at Milestones a week ago with Robert Pepperdine who did a training for 30 professionals in the community who spent eight hours with him learning about motivational enhancement therapy because we want to make sure all of our sober living outpatient and primary care clinicians are trained in this –
JEFF: Sure.
DENISE: – because it really, really does give you the best chance at success.
JEFF: Yeah, I love the MI staff and kind of just rolling with whatever is real in front of me kind of thing. And I’m wondering the kind of if, and so this is something that I really don’t know and if there isn’t an answer just let me know. But that is from a family member’s perspective, is there like a couple tips or anything that you might have for a family member whose loved one is at this stage that we were talking about like: “Hey, I just need to stop for a month and I’ll be good to go here. Or like I’ll stop drinking wine for a month, but you know, there’s this vacation coming up and I know that I will have wine in the evening on this vacation.” Is there something that you can kind of like some ideas or lenses to look through for families to manage that? And so one thing that I’ve heard you say is, you know, shaming them, that is not helpful. I get that the other it’s like there’s this gray area and I’m not sure if my question was clear.
DENISE: Yeah, I think I get it and let me know [inaudible] great question. And the first thing we tell families is your job, your only job, I’ve said this for 30 years, is to catch people doing it right. Catch them doing it right? Mark the moment when your loved one is making some shifts, it is not easy to enroll in a program and give all of your power away. No cell phones, no laptop, and just unplug and look at yourself. It takes great courage to do that, so catch your loved ones doing it right.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: While they’re in the program, you may not hear all the right things falling out of their mouth right away, but step away for a little bit, put the oxygen mask on yourself. And the two things that encourage families to do is basically get support to look at their own personal boundaries. And it’s very important that they look at their boundaries, physical boundaries, and even, you know, financial boundaries. Treatment can be very expensive and it’s so important that whatever you do, you know, you’re basically taking care of your family financially, physically, and emotionally. So those are the things that we encourage family members to do with a professional like yourself Jeff who gets it? Who’s been in the field for at least 20 years. You need experts. You want the doctor who’s done a thousand surgeries, not just a couple.
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: So make sure that you find someone who gets it, who’s well respected in the community to guide you and just recognize that it’s the process. And when people are coming out of post acute withdrawal, they’re not feeling good. So the patient who’s in treatment isn’t feeling so good and addiction affects the structure of the brain. So they’re not thinking so well right away. It takes awhile to get your sea legs. And so, that’s the advice I would give families is –
JEFF: Sure.
DENISE: – look at your personal boundaries and get support and catch your loved one doing it right.
JEFF: Yeah. Great. Thank you. Thank you for that. That’s really helpful. And then kind of going back to, you know, the theme of the book, the book is written for families or for professionals?
DENISE: Whoever picks it up. You know, I think it’s going to be, it’s just written for anyone. It could be someone who is looking to enroll in a program. It could be a family member or it could be a professional just looking for more information about what’s going on in rehab.
JEFF: Yeah. And trying to make, I mean I’m, one thing I’m hearing it’s information that is real and evidence base and it’s like you’re trying to make it concise and have that information all in one place kind of thing.
DENISE: Exactly. People don’t self medicate because they’re having a good time. You know, it may have started out that way for a second, but they really need to be respected for what they’re doing. And I really encourage society to look at this as a remission based illness that it’s just like anything, whether you have diabetes, or a heart condition, or cancer, you have to treat the condition and it’s one day at a time and it’s hard work. But like I said, I have seen so many families, you know, get well and patients renew themselves and lead prosperous lives. And I know you have too Jeff, and many of the interventionists you work with are just, they’re just so incredible in regard to the time that they will dedicate to helping families navigate these –
JEFF: Challenges.
DENISE: – you know, difficult times and challenges. Thank you. Yes.
JEFF: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Well yeah, this is I mean –
DENISE: We could talk forever. [laughing]
JEFF: Yeah. And I’m trying to kind of keep it like at a higher level here without going down too many rabbit holes. But it’s like one of the things that I see a fair amount is, you know, where treatment, I mean, I’ve had clients who think, you know, detox for three to seven days is treatment, which we all know that is not treatment, but it’s also, you know, oftentimes thought of as an individual problem with an individual solution. It’s like, you know, families that drop Johnny off the door, at the door of the treatment center and say: “Just fix him for us. We’ll be back in a month or three or whatever the agreement is. We’re good here. Just fix him. And then we can go back to “normal”.” And that’s problematic thinking. And that’s, I mean that’s how I see it, but I see that thing happening all around us and it kind of baffles me and I appreciate your, you know, kind of talking about your background and education and social work kind of coming at this from that lens and it’s like, but of course this just makes so much sense. Like, how could we see it any other way, yet there is this kind of individual solutions for individual problems kind of thinking. I don’t know.
DENISE: Yeah. Well, it’s a really great point because I think when you’re in the throes of crisis, you’re very mindful and awake to what’s going on. And I think that this isn’t so unusual from any other illness, is that, you know, if someone’s diagnosed with something and six months later, you know they’re in recovery, they’re in remission, you might not be talking about it as much and you’re not as mindful and conscious of you know, of your behaviors in the family system. So, I think that one of the key takeaways is to continue to stay involved in some level of a support group, to stay awake to the fact that it’s very easy to go back to the way like it was. It’s human nature to do that. We have a homeostasis level, we have a comfort level and it’s very easy to do that. So, what’s going to be your action steps so that you continue to take care of yourself as a family member.
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: Because the trajectory of addiction, you know, if a person goes out and has a relapse or a slip, it doesn’t have to be the end of the world. You know, it just means that we have to be mindful and get back on track and see what psychosocial stressor impacted your loved one that allowed them to relapse and make that choice again or to get back into the disease. And that’s why at Milestones we have a tuneup, we have what’s called the booster. Some people come in who have not relapsed, they just want to come in and just mindfully look at their life and say, I need to, I’m kind of getting off par here, off course. I need to collect myself. I just went through, you know, a breakup or job loss. And so, they’re just being very preventative and mindful.
And then some people have had a relapse and we will do what’s called an autopsy of a relapse. What happened, what led up to it and how are we going to avoid this and how can I be stronger and more resilient going back out into the world. The world is not an easy place. It’s very stressful.
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: The other thing that I, one thing that I thought of that is really important, having been at Milestones for 15 years is when the person steps down from primary or extended care into outpatient and sober living with a new team. That piece that’s very crucial to look at is when they stepped down, the disease can step in. I agree with Alcoholics Anonymous. The disease is cunning and baffling. It’s the one disease you have to convince people they have sometimes. And so, when they’re stepping down to a new team, it’s almost like, you know, the disease is just waiting to crawl back into that space. And that’s why I love programs like, you know, the professional programs like, where they have accountability testing for many years –
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: – post treatment –
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: – because they’re finding, of course the sciences is that when the neural pathways know that you, there isn’t a get out of jail card, that the neural pathways will start developing in such a way that it strengthens the desire to be sober.
JEFF: Right.
DENISE: And so, I think that’s one thing for families and patients to really look at is really protecting their recovery as best they can when there are changes in their lifestyle.
JEFF: Yeah. So, I think it’s easier for the majority of people to hear what you’re saying and think about the individual who was an addiction and they’re in early stage recovery. And the other way that I’ve thought about this before is with family members who they have gotten habitual patterns of reacting to, you know, maybe the individual with addiction or newly in recovery. And for them, the goal is, we all know kind of like how do they change these patterns and the first step is becoming aware of it. But even, you know, after that it’s like they’re in their own stage of change process. Like family members are making changes and for them to go back to old habitual ways of communicating or reacting, that I mean, we don’t think of that as a relapse, but that’s a lapse and a change that I may have initially gotten that I need to make and I may have made some headway on, but then, you know, when there’s a big stressor or a crisis, it’s so easy to kind of like have a fallback. And when we have a family who the family has made change, the family can support one another –
DENISE: Exactly.
JEFF: – and not falling back into habitual patterns. So yeah, there’s so much, like it takes a village that kind of thinking. And Denise, I really, really have had a lot of respect for you over many years because of so many of the different things that you’re doing in, you know, the community, around Malibu and the addiction community really around the nation. I mean from some of the people that you connect with, it sure seems that way and it’s like pulling together that village. And I think that’s so important. And I guess one of the, like visions I have or hopes and that is, that if there’s a way for families to do that with one another to support other, and I’m like, I haven’t seen a lot of that.
I don’t know how that could happen. I have some ideas about, you know, perhaps that’s a little bit idealistic, but my sense is that there’s a lot of good things going on in the addiction recovery space. There’s also some out of integrity things going on. The more that we can work together to, you know, shine light on shadowed areas, which is kind of like what I see the theme of the book that you and the other folks you mentioned are writing, the more that we have that kind of, you know, collaboration, working together, I think the more the statistics can actually change. And –
DENISE: I agree wholeheartedly.
JEFF: – that’s kind of grass roots approach and, I mean in our conversations I’ve really appreciated your, like you don’t use the same language, this grass roots approach, but I think with your social work kind of background and education and understanding, you are doing something similar, at least that’s my perception. How’s this landing? Do you have some [inaudible].
DENISE: Well, I appreciate all of your kind words and, you know, we’re just all doing it together. Every day, I just see how hard everyone works, you know, and in our industry and in our communities. And few years ago, I did purchase the domain name recovery concentric circles because I think that exactly what you’re saying is we need, like NAMI has for families, we need to have a space for families to go where they can connect. Because just like with the identified patient, you know, the disease lives where there’s disconnection. Families need to connect. We need to decrease the stigma. There isn’t a family that I’ve met that hasn’t been impacted by addiction or mental health conditions. So, let’s talk about it. And I think that’s happening and it’s happening more and more. And if we did something like family concentric circles or recovery concentric and it’s free.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: And it’s guided by well-intended, you know, people who’ve been through this process. I think that we could really make a mark on how we decrease addiction.
JEFF: Yeah. Yeah – yeah. Well, I mean that’s kind of what I’m trying to do in my own way online. And I wish I could do it for free.
DENISE: No. Well, you know –
JEFF: That’s not happening right now.
DENISE: – I think you’re almost doing it for free. Aren’t you down with all the hours you’ve put in?
JEFF: [laughing]
DENISE: And, you know, let’s launch it there and let’s move it out. You know, because, you know, the sooner the better. There are people dying. We all, you know, we all know what’s going on with the opioid crisis and how many families have been so gravely and deeply scarred by this. I think we’re all doing our due diligence and the more we come together as a community of professionals get in connect, then we can help the families connect more as well.
JEFF: Yeah, thank you.
DENISE: And just thank you for everything you’ve done. I just, I encourage everyone to go to your website and sign up and let’s make this happen. Let’s get this going and, you know, why not, right?
JEFF: Sure, yeah. So, as we’re winding down towards the end of this Denise, are there some things that you wanted to share that we haven’t touched on yet?
DENISE: The only thing I want to go back to a little bit is just underlying issues. You know, when people use drugs and alcohol to solve a problem.
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: And I think it’s really important to understand that just because you take drugs and alcohol away and say, just stop it. Doesn’t mean that the underlying issues are treated. And the underlying issues are serious. 90% of our patients coming into rehab have serious trauma, PTSD. Some people have severe sleep hygiene issues. Other people have, you know, been maybe an automobile accident and became addicted to opiates and what was legitimate pain. The brain manufactures illegitimate pain to get more of the opiates. I mean, there are so many reasons and it takes time to thread our way through all of these different things going on. And what’s happened is the addiction feels the desire to live and the purpose and meaning. So on top of that, even once you starting to work on these issues, you really have to then look at, okay, let’s look at what, as you’re transforming your life, what are you going to fill the time up with now? And how can we support you? And this all takes time. So, I guess my biggest takeaway would be be patient, be loving, you know, be kind. Take care of your own personal boundaries –
JEFF: Yeah.
DENISE: – and just recognize that this is something that is a process.
JEFF: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And so, can you say a little bit about how people can connect with Milestones Ranch? How you would like them to connect with you, Milestones Ranch. What would that look like?
DENISE: Oh, absolutely. We’re just a small organization, so you can either go through our website and our guestbook or you could call us at (818) 879-9110 and you will most likely get Savannah, Carolyn or Denise. And we’ve all been there a long time and we will call you back and happily assist in any way we can.
JEFF: Great. Well Denise, thank you so much. I appreciate this conversation.
DENISE: Oh, I do too. And thank you again for everything you’re doing. You’re a beacon of light.
JEFF: Thank you.